Ranks of Volunteer Firefighters Plummeting in USA

I now understand, but you need to remember some of those base salaries are little off and I would love to see benefits like that at most departments. Wow a $1000 yr for uniform allowance..most are allowed 3 typical uniforms and upkeep of bunker gear. I understand regions will vary in costs; but this is on the high side. Such as $ 40K starting pay. In some areas some would love to see this after 5 yrs service. Again, I know it varies within regions of the country.

Let me explain about the volunteer issue is simple. In the late eighties the reformation of the Basic EMT criteria was watered down directly to the outcry of voulunteers describing that it was too difficult to recruit members in their service. The description was that if it increased this would cause hardships on these services... the same is true with the proposed Scope of Practice model.

If you don't believe it was watered down do a comparrision of diadactic module comparrision of anatomy and treatment priorto the change.. ( for most of you, that have been in EMS >10 years) Then review the inital propsed Scope of Practice now look at the final draft... sorry medicine is medicine, and the criteria should not be changed because of systems lacking.

We need to find a source to increase funding to departments or incorporate county wide, or Fire / EMS districts that can staff and deliver 24/7 care without the dependence of volunteers, if it has become so difficult. I am not against volunteerism by no means, just addressing the issue that it is dying. Realizing we need to look for answers, and start looking now. The problem is going to get worse as the medium age increases. What do you see the future of your department will be in 5 - 10 years, with the predicted number of EMS calls to double or triple ? WIl your department be able to handle the volume?

Respectively,
Ridryder 911
 
The length of training required in order to enter the Hot Zone here in florida is a Minium of 160 hours (including a 40 hour First Responder)

you can find the requirements hereFl Vol FF Req

Now when I did it, we went to class 3 nights a week and 8 hours every saturday for 3 months. This was in addition to our regular shift times, our regular 40 hour a week jobs, plus family committments. So its easy to see how they are loosing volunteers.

Sure all this training results in better trained individuals, however finding the people to be willing to commit that much time to anything without any compensation is extremely difficult.

Then at the end of the 160 hours, we still had to take the state exam, which was the absolute hardest test I have ever taken in my life.
 
QUOTE (ridryder 911 @ Nov 11 2005, 05:27 PM)


.......If, based on the statistics that Jon quoted, we were to start paying even half those volunteers it would cost nearly $22.7 billion (1.1 milX.75X.5X55,000).
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I would like to know what the pay model looks like for fire or ems personnel then.
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JEMS posts an annual nationwide salary poll hfdff422 , and $22Bil isn't exactly chump change in an all time record deficit...

If you don't believe it was watered down do a comparrision of diadactic module comparrision of anatomy and treatment priorto the change.. ( for most of you, that have been in EMS >10 years) Then review the inital propsed Scope of Practice now look at the final draft... sorry medicine is medicine, and the criteria should not be changed because of systems lacking.
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The B cric did change, however the I level revived itself from older didactic's where , imho, they simply dragged out books that had been unused for a decade.

It also seems to me that there are a good number of vollie I techs whom are keeping their certs up, although i will admit the scope of practice is inclusive of what the area medical director will allow, and this is usually determined by the number of incidents one can utilitize to keep us skills.

as to an outcry of vollies 'lacking' that moved the dot & cohorts into this i would ask you provide a link to prove your point Ryder, rather than that which is plain heresay...

~S~
 
First I did not say vollies are lacking. What I did say was the outcry to the national committee in 1985, 1988 ( ref: Montanna studies, Stolt), major decision was determined to change basic level to a friendly less stressful course. The removal of simple medical terminology and reduction of anatomy as well. ( Don't believe me try to find classifications of fractures in the basic book)

The problem is of volunteers is not the volunteers themselves. The problem is it is affecting the growth or scope of medicine in EMS. I again, refer to the National Scope Practice inital edition and current revision. Again, the outcry of volunteer services fears that with increasing training and education memberships will decline. (I refer to EMS advocates, et. for committee report)

I am not personally against any volunteer agency, what I am against is determining how EMS will function and treat patients due to lack of supply and demand of voulnteers. Sorry that peoples lives have to become to involved to care for the human man, however; restricting requirements and downsizing education will not increase memberships either.

Again, I ask members of volunteers services what is the plan when the your run volume double or possibly triples within the next five years. The prediction of the baby boomers increasing in age, prediciton is that EMS runs will at least double in number. This is the main point of the post.....

Be safe,
Ridryder 911
 
So you base your assumption that volunteers are responsible for the dumbing down of EMS nationally, because of a study done in Montana?

I'd like to see some reasons for me to blame the gentlefolk down the street for dumb EMS providers. Like maybe some statistics from every state for the last twenty years.

As an EMT Instructor, I don't think EMS has literally been dumbed down. I'll take a quote for you, my father said this while visiting. He picked up my instructor itenery and said "Boy, they're still teaching the same stuff as they did in the 70's".

That's the answer for me. EMS Training has stayed the same, as far as Basics go, it hasn't evolved to new technology. Probably because instead of equipping to modern times, someone numb head in god knows what state decided they needed a new class for it. That's how we came to having 40+ EMT Certifications. What seems simple to me now, was complex 30 years ago, its not dumb... It's old.
 
You are the first instructor I have heard state that description. Look again, at anatomy,, hmm do you see even the types of fractures or even some texts don't even have the word myocardial infarction.. but heart attack, Do we even have to mention charting or documentation and abbreviations.....

Sorry, even NAEMSE has discussed this in detail. Look at the failure rate into the Paramedic programs and having to re-train when enteing Paramedic class. New Basic EMT curriculum can not to be too hard if one can accomplish and pass it in 2 weeks as some instructional sites has guaranteed.

Again, look at the whole picture not your neighborhood. Look at the number of programs that are cranking out EMT's everyday and where do they go ?... My state alone will produce over 300-500 every 16 weeks for a state that has only 180 EMS services (most of these are ALS) so what are the chances of emplyment and maintaining current level or skill competancy. And do you really trust those that have not seen a patient or read in the past 23 months before their licensure expire ?

Not really trying to be agumentative, just believe I am presenting poor communication on my ideas. I fear, we will have a ton full of EMT's and no place for them to call home. If they do get lucky, it will be either be volunteer or poor emplyment opportunity. Maybe entry level requirements ought to be implemented.

Respectfully,
Ridryder 911
 
Originally posted by ridryder 911@Nov 12 2005, 08:47 PM
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But what does wording of a text book have to do with no volunteer firefighters?
 
Getting back on subject.

I just opened my email, and Billy G's latest "Secret List" email rings really true.

It is his very well written response to the original artical, which first appeared in USA Today:

Hey...
By now, most of you have read the article in USA Today last week regarding the volunteer fire service. Here is a link in case you missed it:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-1...ers_x.htm?csp=1

And while there are various reasons for these reported issues and problems (some discussed in the article and some clearly not) ...the fact of the matter is that in many areas, the challenges of operating an effective volunteer or combination fire department is a major issue. We have been told that in the coming days, there will be other news articles coming out as the media deeply explores the fire service-and in particular, the volunteer fire service and the issues of response, staffing,
training, funding and leadership.

One interesting item is a "tool" that the National Volunteer Fire Council has developed called the NVFC's Cost Savings Calculator. This free tool will help your VFD determine it's contribution to the community, and provide data for the citizens and especially, your politicians who fund the departments. It can help you educate your city/town council, fire department boards and commissions, community groups, and even your firefighters about the value that your department may bring to the community.

Got to http://www.nvfc.org/calculator/main.html and check it out. It is free online, the initial study itself is downloadable as well and there is even a free Power point program.

Generally, you can go to most any volunteer firehouse and hear the discussions about "how much money is being saved" by the volunteers...and that's a big deal. And while money may be saved, it must also be compar ed to the particular VFD's staffing, timely response times, training, leadership and other serious challenges. After all, saving money may be great but if the VFD has poor response times, poor turnout, little or inadequate training-all issues facing some volunteer fire companies (and some non-volunteer FD's as well), the money savings is B. S. The community "feels" like they are protected...but are they? The true answers are always known by those who carry the pagers. Ever heard this....

"We love our VFD...we have some great people and we really do care"...
"Yeah...but sometimes we really have trouble getting the apparatus out for calls when the tones go off"....
"Yeah...but look how much MONEY we are saving the community".....
"But so many of our responding members fail to show up for basic training"....
"Yeah...but look how much MONEY we are saving the community"....
W.T.F. ?!

On the other hand, there are many outstanding VFD's that consistently respond quickly...VFD's that are well lead with well trained and adequately staffed companies providing excellent service...that matters. Often, these VFD's are like many that also have to raise their own funds...something that makes little sense. The NVFC's Cost Savings Calculator is a tool that is helpful in getting local politicians and citizens to "get it" when it comes to understanding the value of their volunteer firefighters....and what the cost savings of a truly effective, mission focused and service oriented volunteer fire department is...or can be.

Take Care,
BillyG
The Secret List 11-12-05
www.FirefighterCloseCalls.com
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It is not the money that VFD's save the community, it is the fact that the community can not afford to fund anymore than they do in many instances.
 
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