Pressure Point Techniques

Bossy, anyone who professes to be a "damn good cook" probably doesn't need more to convince a patient to be cooperative!
 
If I may chime in here. I realize this is my first post but...
I have 5 years experience in EMS. I study BJJ and a combatives class. The patients I most concerned about being violent are most likely high, drunk or emotionally disturned. I have seen these people continue to fight after suffering painful injuries. I am not sure pressure points are going to be helpful when a stab wound hasn't stopped the patient. I don't like to put down any form of martial art because I love martial arts. I just think this may be the wrong application.

I do have some questions.

Has this system been tried in the field? What types of calls have you used on? Have you taken the applications to fit EMS so far?
 
Hope everyone had a good Holiday

:excl: Sorry I've been gone; my computer crashed over Christmas and I had to get the whole thing reformatted.:excl:

I know everyone seems to have a preconceived notion of what I'm talking about, but maybe I should clarify once again. THIS IS NOT TYPICAL "MARTIAL ARTS". I do not teach EMS to fight. I'm not talking Jackie Chan stuff... and it's nothing like the pressure point stuff that you may have learned. If you press on the right nerve on the arm, the arm becomes immobile until you release the nerve. It's not difficult to do, you just have to know what nerve to press and at what angle. It's not "pain compliance" ...it's simple anatomy. It is completely non-invasive. I also teach the PP or the nerve if you will that controls the Golgi tendon to control the elbow and how it's used. There are no side effects, you're not going to break any bones, or hit anyone and ANYBODY can do this. And you goal is to NOT hurt the patient what so ever. It's just a simple matter of knowing how.

Here are just two of the reviews I have received from people who have attended my seminars and used these techniques in the field and have for a few years now:

"I have been able to use these techniques on more than one occasion. When working in the E.D., a patient became combative during an intubation and we used the pressure points above the knees to hold the patient down with little effort nad no discomfort to the patient. On the other occasion, Police officers brought us a very combative and violent intoxicated person for evaluation. We were able to subdue him using pressure points on the arm and wrist without injury to the EMS crew, the police offers, or the patient. I recommend this course to any EMS personnel that is interested in personal safety for both themselves and their partners"
-Scott Lane - EMT1

"I have been a paramedic for 12 years. On numerous occasions I have needed to prevent injury to others as well as the patient. Using these simple techniques, I have been able to start difficult IV's on seizing or head injured patients without causing harm and in fact, accelerating treatments."
-Josh Sarver - EMT - Paramedic, Lead EMT Instructor


Thanks
 
do you have a video to post?
 
Here is another quote from an EMT

I recently used one of the techniques Mr. Greenwood help us with to hold a child for an IV stick, the child did not even feel the stick. No pain just success. The family was impressed that the procedure went so smoothly, it is a much safer way to hold a child for a frightening procedure. I am not a kyusho practitioner intially, so unfortunately I do not know the correct names of the points on the posterior side of the elbow. What I do know is they cannot move and they hold still and the procedure is much better for the individual and caregivers.

As for a video I am working on that. The company that produced my video is very busy and are trying to get me something good put together.
 
emskyusho said:
I recently used one of the techniques Mr. Greenwood help us with to hold a child for an IV stick, the child did not even feel the stick. No pain just success. The family was impressed that the procedure went so smoothly, it is a much safer way to hold a child for a frightening procedure. I am not a kyusho practitioner intially, so unfortunately I do not know the correct names of the points on the posterior side of the elbow. What I do know is they cannot move and they hold still and the procedure is much better for the individual and caregivers.

As for a video I am working on that. The company that produced my video is very busy and are trying to get me something good put together.
Click to expand...


Something like that could prove beneficial in the non-violent setting for sure. I would gladly back something like that. Something non-aggressive for help with IV sticks on someone with altered LOC or a child.
 
I don't doubt that you can teach someone something useful and I'm afraid this has turned into a bashing session. I can list many successes from my students also. Sometimes, we teach without even realizing it. We do it by being a good example. For instance, I once stopped an angry man from pushing me out of his house (I am a police officer by the way) by simply placing my foot against his knee as he stepped towards me. It was painless, subtle and he would have been injured if he hadn't stopped completely. After he calmed down and we left, my partner said he never saw a move like that and would I teach it to him. I had no idea what he was talking about. As trainers and practitioners, we have developed reflexes that require absolutely no thought whatsoever. I don't believe that teaching that knee stop technique is worthwhile. It was a tactic, not a technique. It followed a series of actions and reactions as well as orienting myself and reading body language. The options were so automatic that they were never even given a second thought. I would never present that particular movement in a seminar to medics or police officers. It just bypasses the mental processes that are needed to complete a response system. But I bet I could make a buck by teaching it.
 
emskyusho,

So let me see if I'm getting this right, and please correct me if I'm wayy off, are you basically speaking about body control? Simple pressure control? Would that be accurate to say?

I might also add that in many times when a patient is high on narcotics or alcohol, or some form of stimulant. They often CANNOT feel pain, therefore the pain compliance and pressure points don't do whole lot with regards to pain compliance.

Another factor as DT4EMS mentioned was legal consequences. If your gonna use force against a patient (no matter how or what you call it) even a simple touch for restraint or control can be considered assualt against a patient. (Check your local laws)

But please correct me if I read your statements correctly!!
 
Its been over 3 years since he commented, but maybe your words will draw him out of hiding.
 
I hope not.. .watching those guys argue was stupid. They were in a "who's **** is bigger" match. DT4EMS was going to continue on and on and on because he thinks he is right. who cares...

arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.. no matter WHO wins.. in the end you're still retarded!
 
so Who's **** is bigger?
 
If the guy isn't here but his .... is than maybe not.
 
Uh....

@ FLEMTP,


LOL..... Maybe I'm apart of the special olympics and that's my specialty, jumping into a pointless argument.. ;-) .. Oh and btw: I'd win the bigger 'yahoo' match ;-)
JK...


EMT-B, CPR/AED/First Aid Instructor:
 
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haha its ok.. i think we're all guilty of that sometimes...







so.... i'll show you mine if you show me yours ?:P
 
FLEMTP said:
I hope not.. .watching those guys argue was stupid. They were in a "who's **** is bigger" match. DT4EMS was going to continue on and on and on because he thinks he is right. who cares...

arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.. no matter WHO wins.. in the end you're still retarded!
Click to expand...

What?...........

I didn't notice I was part of an argument........ Oh well........
 
Normally I don’t take too many things personal, but I will take up issue with this……

FLEMTP wrote “I hope not.. .watching those guys argue was stupid. They were in a "who's **** is bigger" match. DT4EMS was going to continue on and on and on because he thinks he is right. who cares...
arguing on the internet is like competing in the special olympics.. no matter WHO wins.. in the end you're still retarded!”


Who cares? I care....... I have done my best to bring light to a subject that many people want to sweep under a rug. I saw a problem and have done my absolute best to offer a solution.
The reason I take a stand is when people try to make the buck off of EMS using the “widget” theory.
I attempt to keep my posts non-argumentative. A debate is one thing. Implying someone is retarded is another.

Many, many agencies have steered away from training their staff because of horror stories after hearing about other agencies that trained under a martial artist.

If the numbers speak for themselves…….. here is a quote from a link Dr. Maguire just sent me:
http://www.fulbright.com.au/scholars/american-scholars/2009/BrianMaguire.html

“Injury rates among ambulance personnel have been found to be higher than the rates for any other occupational group in the United States; fatality rates are more than twice the U.S. national average and are comparable with other high risk occupations such as police officers and fire-fighters.”
“Communities depend on ambulance personnel, yet studies show that the occupation carries very high risks,” Brian said. “Despite these worrying figures, very little research has been done on factors that influence risks and there have been few documented attempts to develop interventions to mitigate those risks.”

I will continue to spread the word the need for training. As long as that training was designed with EMS, not LEO or martial arts in mind. Training for the unique environment EMS finds itself in.

You don’t see me posting in every medical thread because there are others much smarter than I am that do a fantastic job of replying. I do however respond to use-of-force threads because for 14 years it is what I have been training EMS on.

So FLEMTP, We now have 20 instructors in several states and several EMS teaching institutions teaching our EVE programs. In July we will certify EMS and Fire training officers from two major metropolitan agencies to teach our EVE to their staff. We are considered a subject matter expert in EMS self-defense so that makes me retarded?

If you would like to PM me, I can give you contact information for a large teaching entity close to you that can attest to “what” I am teaching EMS. If you look, you will see a picture of him in our instructor section of our website.

So I apologize to anyone who thinks I want to argue. That is not the case. I want EMS providers to go home safe at the end of a shift and to keep their job if they ever had to use force to defend themselves.

I have never claimed to be a ninja or some bad-***……. I am a regular guy who is trying to stop people from getting hurt………period. That is why people who we have trained believe in what we are doing.

So…. Why would my suggestions of personal protection, adding my educate response, be any different than an expert in EMS application of a medical skill adding his/her educated response to a thread?

The awesome thing is……….. when I re-read over those initial posts from 2006…………. I still say the EXACT same stuff today.
 
First off, I do MA too. Second of all, you would probably be sued for using it on a person while on duty. Third, EMTs try to avoid violent situations using the 6 basic scene size up precautions.

This question was on my first test.
"you are dispatched to 3333 blah rd. for a stabbing at a bar. when you arrive police are not there and the bar tender runs up to you and says 'the guy is crazy he has a gun and he stabbed someone' what should you do?"

1. Run inside and wrestle the attacker down
2. get out of the car and stick your hands up
3. go attend to the patient inside immediately just like you would for any other call
4. floor the ambulance and wait a couple blocks down the road until police arrive.

EMTs avoid getting in dangerous situations. :ph34r:
 
see martial arts thread in physical fitness forum. My opinions on such "mystical" and "full proof" techniques like pressure points. I also disagree with "brute force" to restrain a pt. I can only think of 2 reasons to physically restrain a pt. 1. To keep an altered LOC pt. from injuring him/her self. 2. to protect myself or my partner, but only if there were no other options. As far as karate and all that is concerned... like I said check my posts for my documented opinion on such techniques. And pressure points are far from revolutionary...
 
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