Please tell me what I missed with this patient

Epi-do

I see dead people
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We were dispatched for a sick person and arrive on scene to a 70-something male walking out to the street to meet the ambulance. The patient states he has been "prepping for a colonoscopy" and is complaining of nausea/vomitting, along with "all the stuff that goes with the prep."

He hops up into the ambulance, unassisted. This guy looks generally healthy. He tells us he has no allergies, the only medication he tells us he takes is insulin, and claims his only medical history is IDDM and 3 cardiac stents that were placed 5-6 years ago.

He tells us he has drank 3 cups of the "prep" for his test, and is supposed to drink 3 more, but the horrible taste made him nauseous. He vomitted 3 times between 2100-0400. (It is now 0630 and he just called.) Around 0200 he had some "stomach pain, but I think it is just because I am hungry." He states the "stomach pain" is now completely gone.

He is A&Ox3, PERL, ambulatory. His skin is WPD, and BBS=clear. He denies SOB/DB or CP at anytime. He reiterates that he last vomitted around 0400, and his only complaint at this time is nausea.

His BP is 140's/80's, HR 85-95, RR 14-16. He does not appear to be in any type of distress. When asked what hospital he goes to he replies, "I have to go to XYZ Hospital because that is where my colonoscopy is scheduled at 11:30."

This particular hospital always asks for a blood sugar at triage for diabetic patients. This patient tells us he hasn't checked his blood sugar since bedtime last night, so we go ahead and dex him. It comes back at 250.

I hand the patient off to my BLS partner and we head to the hospital. We get there, my partner gives his report to the triage nurse, and she asks him if ALS was on the scene. He tells her yes and she then wants to know if we put the patient on the cardiac monitor. After telling her that we did not, she wants to know why we didn't and he tells again that the only thing this patient is complaining of is nausea. The triage nurse makes a phone call to get a second opinion on where to put the patient and then gives us a room assignment.

We get to the room with the patient and my partner once again gives his report to the RN, making it clear that the only thing this patient is complaining of is nausea. The second nurse also goes off about how the patient should have been put on a cardiac monitor. My partner tells her that he had no complaints that would indicate a cardiac problem and he denied all CP, SOB/DB, diaphoresis, clamminess, radiating pain, or anything else you can think of that would indicate a possible cardiac issue. The RN then tells him that since the patient has a history of stent placement, that is enough of a reason to take a look with the monitor.

So, were the nurses right? Did I completely miss something here, or did we simply run into a couple RNs that got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?
 
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Summit

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Did you actually miss something or was this about procedure? Only they can tell you that at this point.

70 y/o /w cardiac history C/O N+V + stomach pain = check the monitor if you have one to check... at least in my mind, but I'm not a medic

If nothing was there, you coulda still dispoed it to your BLS partner for transport.
 

traumaangel26

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With his hx, a monitor should have gone on. N&V is an indicator of cardiac problems. No, it is not always a cardiac problem, but something that needs to be ruled out.

Don't beat yourself up over this one pt, but learn from it. You will remember it next time!
 

VentMedic

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Cardiac patients can be a nightmare for many procedure preps because they may have to change or stop their medications such as Coumadin and ASA up to 5 days prior.

If they had a stent, they may also have had some wall motion affected from muscle damage prior to the stent. Electrolyte balance and their whole acid/base status within their system will make them very prone for arrhythmias.
 

JPINFV

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Atypical (silent) presentations of cardiac problems are common with patients that have a history of diabetes. Live, learn, hit the next one out of the park.
 

rescuepoppy

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Sounds to me like you were treating this patient based of of what you saw. Putting on monitor would not be unreasonable,but I was not there to see what you saw so probably not really anything missed.
 

ptemt

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The "prep" he drank was likely the colon cleanser called "Fleet." You fast for 24 hours and drink "Fleet." Fleet tastes awful and then it emptys out your system on its terms. The colonoscopy itself is a sunny day at the park compared to the misery of drinking fleet. Tastes awful is an understatement and while it does its work you do not stray far from the toilet.

Yes to the EKG, rule out cardiac.
 

VentMedic

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Oral sodium phosphate (OSP) solutions, including FLEET, Visicol and OsmoPrep, draw water into the gut to promote cleansing. They may be easier to tolerate, but can cause dehydration and electrolyte imbalances. A high phosphate load may also not be safe for patients with kidney, heart, liver, or certain intestinal diseases.

Polyethylene glycol (PEG) solutions such as Golytely, Colyte, Nulytely, Trilyte and Halflytely work by pushing a large volume of fluid through the bowel to force out waste. They cause no significant electrolyte shifts, so they are considered safer than OSP solutions but still have some risks for patients with certain disease processes or conditions.

The nausea and vomiting can also lead to cardiac complications in sensitive patients since the vagus nerve and sympathetic trunk is involved in the vomiting reflex.

A stent is also a temporary fix which buys time. For some patients who are not compliant (and even if they are) with their medications, diet and exercise or have a strong family history, stents can be very temporary and these patients are ticking time bombs waiting for the next occlusion. They must be re-evaluated periodically especially after the 5 year mark.
 
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VentMedic

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One more small note: in our hospital system, patients over the age of 40, or any age if they have risk factors, and those with known cardiac problems get a 12-lead ECG before the procedure.
 

eric2068

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Don't kill yourself over this. I probably would have just off the Hx. Don't sweat the nurse.
 

marineman

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Like others have said it's not worth losing any sleep over it. Just the other night I was listening to an older mediccast episode and they recommended applying a monitor on any patient with a chief complaint between the naval and the nose. Based on that I think I would have done a 4 lead but it's a lot easier to think about these things when playing armchair quarterback. Patient lived, he's not any worse for wear because of not doing it so it's really not something to get upset over.
 

MSDeltaFlt

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We were dispatched for a sick person and arrive on scene to a 70-something male walking out to the street to meet the ambulance. The patient states he has been "prepping for a colonoscopy" and is complaining of nausea/vomitting, along with "all the stuff that goes with the prep."

He hops up into the ambulance, unassisted. This guy looks generally healthy. He tells us he has no allergies, the only medication he tells us he takes is insulin, and claims his only medical history is IDDM and 3 cardiac stents that were placed 5-6 years ago.

He tells us he has drank 3 cups of the "prep" for his test, and is supposed to drink 3 more, but the horrible taste made him nauseous. He vomitted 3 times between 2100-0400. (It is now 0630 and he just called.) Around 0200 he had some "stomach pain, but I think it is just because I am hungry." He states the "stomach pain" is now completely gone.

He is A&Ox3, PERL, ambulatory. His skin is WPD, and BBS=clear. He denies SOB/DB or CP at anytime. He reiterates that he last vomitted around 0400, and his only complaint at this time is nausea.

His BP is 140's/80's, HR 85-95, RR 14-16. He does not appear to be in any type of distress. When asked what hospital he goes to he replies, "I have to go to XYZ Hospital because that is where my colonoscopy is scheduled at 11:30."

This particular hospital always asks for a blood sugar at triage for diabetic patients. This patient tells us he hasn't checked his blood sugar since bedtime last night, so we go ahead and dex him. It comes back at 250.

I hand the patient off to my BLS partner and we head to the hospital. We get there, my partner gives his report to the triage nurse, and she asks him if ALS was on the scene. He tells her yes and she then wants to know if we put the patient on the cardiac monitor. After telling her that we did not, she wants to know why we didn't and he tells again that the only thing this patient is complaining of is nausea. The triage nurse makes a phone call to get a second opinion on where to put the patient and then gives us a room assignment.

We get to the room with the patient and my partner once again gives his report to the RN, making it clear that the only thing this patient is complaining of is nausea. The second nurse also goes off about how the patient should have been put on a cardiac monitor. My partner tells her that he had no complaints that would indicate a cardiac problem and he denied all CP, SOB/DB, diaphoresis, clamminess, radiating pain, or anything else you can think of that would indicate a possible cardiac issue. The RN then tells him that since the patient has a history of stent placement, that is enough of a reason to take a look with the monitor.

So, were the nurses right? Did I completely miss something here, or did we simply run into a couple RNs that got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?


Epi,

There is nothing in the above post that would tell me you had to put him on a cardiac monitor, or else. I honestly would have done the exact same thing you did. I do have a couple of questions. What was found to be the problem with this pt? Also, if there was anything found, what would you have done to fix it?
 

BLSBoy

makes good girls go bad
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I would have, if nothing else, to bill for ALS1.

Do an ALS assessment, and triage to BLS. You get ALS1 rate.

However, with his hx, whats a quick 12 lead gonna hurt?

Teach your basic something.
 

daedalus

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Atypical (silent) presentations of cardiac problems are common with patients that have a history of diabetes. Live, learn, hit the next one out of the park.

I disagree. A cardiac monitor was not warranted for this patient, who was being taken to the hospital for an outpatient test. We are no longer in the age where we can practice CYA medicine because its expensive and does not improve patient care.

On a down to earth prospective, Epi, I believe you gave this patient very advanced care just by checking him out and giving him a ride to the hospital inside of an ambulance. That is overkill for this patient, but it can be justified in the off chance he had some sort of reaction to the "prep". He did not need a cardiac monitor.

I can see how anorexia and vomiting can lead to electrolyte issues which could lead to cardiac problems, but we do not hospitalize people with the flu in telemetry units.

Stick to your guns and defend your decision if you think you were right.
 

VentMedic

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I can see how anorexia and vomiting can lead to electrolyte issues which could lead to cardiac problems, but we do not hospitalize people with the flu in telemetry units.

Yes we do especially if they have a history that is significant. They are also found in the ICUs and CCUs on ventilators. Read the stats on the death rate from the "just the flu" in "at risk" patients. Wonder why the flu vaccine get promoted so heavily?

What would have been done for this same patient if the test prep was not in the picture and just the cardiac history was known? What would have been your thoughts if the patient told you he had not taken certain meds like Coumadin and ASA for at least 3 days? Sometimes the obvious can mask the truly significant issues. Also, given the fact that the patient had probably been on Coumadin and ASA for at least 6 years, what GI complications might be present?

There is a lot to assess with these patients but as many suggest, just drive the patient to the hospital. It seems almost contradictory now that once hospital staff do start to recognize what can be done by prehospital providers, the EMS providers revert to being ambulance drivers. This statement is not directed at Epi-do.

The RN has studied beyond the obvious and has been made aware of certain complications of various tests and their preps. Unfortunately, the nurse assumed others might also have similar knowledge.
 
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Summit

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Now this debate is getting interesting. :)
 

JPINFV

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I disagree. A cardiac monitor was not warranted for this patient, who was being taken to the hospital for an outpatient test. We are no longer in the age where we can practice CYA medicine because its expensive and does not improve patient care.

According to the OP the patient was going to the hospital for nausea and vomiting while preparing for the test, not taking the ambulance to the hospital for the test. I'll echo what Vent just asked, would you acquire a 12 lead under the same conditions minus the scheduled colonoscopy?
 

daedalus

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According to the OP the patient was going to the hospital for nausea and vomiting while preparing for the test, not taking the ambulance to the hospital for the test. I'll echo what Vent just asked, would you acquire a 12 lead under the same conditions minus the scheduled colonoscopy?

Minus the laxative prep, yes I would preform a 12 lead. However, a bad reaction to the bowel prep is many times more likely, so that would be my working diagnosis. Therefore, I would not preform an expensive test to rule out cardiac issues in this case.

Minus the bowel prep, yes I would like to preform a 12 lead.

VentMedic, at risk populations who are already sick can easily be hospitalized because of simple infectious diseases, however healthy people are generally not hospitalized for isolated cases of vomiting.
 

JPINFV

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Minus the laxative prep, yes I would preform a 12 lead. However, a bad reaction to the bowel prep is many times more likely, so that would be my working diagnosis. Therefore, I would not preform an expensive test to rule out cardiac issues in this case.

I'm not too up to date on the cost of procedures, but how much does acquiring a 12 lead actually cost? Also do you acquire a BGL on patients who are altered with a history of neuropsych disorders (i.e. dementia)?
 

VentMedic

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VentMedic, at risk populations who are already sick can easily be hospitalized because of simple infectious diseases, however healthy people are generally not hospitalized for isolated cases of vomiting.

You consider this guy healthy?

70 y/o
IDDM
3 cardiac stents that were placed 5-6 years ago.


Other things to consider:
Why was the patient getting a colonoscopy? Routine or diagnostic?
When was his last EKG? Did he already have one done as part of the pre-procedure prep?

Depending on why the test was being done and the person's ability to handle stress can trigger complications also. Some people might prefer open heart surgery to having a colonoscopy.

a history of neuropsych disorders (i.e. dementia)?

Almost all of our neuropsych patients get ECGs especially if they have been treated or will be treated medications for their psych disorders. They will also be closely monitors if they are also on any respiratory medications during that treatment.

If the patient calls an ambulance and has probably been through the healthcare system a few times, I seriously doubt if they are going to be concerned about what an EKG costs. Nor, should you make it their concern by telling them you are not doing a test because it costs too much. They may take that as discrimination.
 
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