Physical Assessment - DCAP BTLS

I'm thinking strongly about being a medical director and I don't mind doing education. But if someone tells me the knowingly violated a protocol, they knew they should have called in and didn't but thought that they knew better than I did when I wrote those protocols, we're going to have a problem. And I don't think that is someone who I'd let work under my license because I'd have a hard time trusting them.

I will never be an EMS medical director unless something majorly changes. But If I could just point out that in many agencies, not naming any in particular, when the medical director makes waves, the medical director is replaced.

Just something to consider.
 
But based on presentation, sometimes it helps to mix and match protocols, not select one and follow it until you can do no more without calling and then not call.

Yeah, it's not like patient's ever present with more than one problem at once. :rolleyes:
 
I guess it comes down to what you mean by following a protocol. It is one thing to say "this patient doesn't fit neatly into a protocol so I had to use some judgement on how to treat them." I have no problem with that. My problem is when the protocol is explicit about something, you know that protocol applies, and you decide to violate it anyway. The medical director put down those explicit rules for a reason. If it says you only get 2 attempts at intubation before you BLS the airway, you only get 2 trys. There is no real place for judgement to come into play. Or if the protocols say transport to the closest hospital unless you get medical control approval, and you drive an extra half an hour without calling, you are in trouble.

Some things in the protocol are cut and dried. Max doses of medication. Limits on intubation. Criteria for cath lab activations. Etc.

EMS is a agreement worked out where physicians say "you can practice under my license, but there are some rules. If you want to do something else you have to call and get approval." The reason we have this system is because the good from the very few cases where blatant protocol violation helped a patient are far outweighed from the harm if everyone could just decide for themselves when to follow those rules.

This can go round and round in the abstract. Let's hear some examples. For those who say they are just guidelines, give an example of when you (or someone else) felt the protocol was putting a patient in danger you violated them without calling medical control. Similarly I'd like to hear some examples of when someone got sued for following a protocols that directly lead to a bad outcome.

Here is the statement on the first page of our protocol book. My last service had almost the same thing:

"While treatment and transport decisions in the field vary, these guidelines can assist the pre-hospital provider by standardizing procedures for the most common and routine emergencies encountered and will be considered the minimum standard. It is expected that the pre-hospital provider preforming these skills will use good judgement. Please understand that these standards are to be used together with the standing orders, and with consideration of the level of training and certification of the provider."

As I stated before, I have never seen a set of protocols that did not list them as guidelines.
 
One of the counties in So Cal have a similar introduction for the ALS protocols.

"It is important to note that these policies are intended as a thought process or decision tree, not as an absolute plan. Every situation is unique; a policy could not possibly be written to cover every circumstance. We expect paramedics to use their training and good judgment when treating patients in the field and to document situations that vary from the norm.
In the policies, the treatments that appear in the non-shaded areas tend to be the treatments of choice for that set of symptoms. Therefore, it made sense to include those treatments in the “prior to contact” realm. Paramedics have the option to perform procedures or administer drugs in the non-shaded areas on their own counsel, or to contact the base hospital for consultation. Not all treatments need to be done prior to base hospital contact."

No emphasis added.

http://www.rivcoems.org/downloads/downloads_documents/Protocol102904/7000.pdf
 
Veneficus; said:
I will never be an EMS medical director unless something majorly changes. But If I could just point out that in many agencies, not naming any in particular, when the medical director makes waves, the medical director is replaced.

Just something to consider.

True, but I think if someone went outside of their protocols in a big way it wouldn't take much effort for the medical director to have action taken against that employee, especially if it wasn't the first time.

I think your above examples are good ones, and ones that I would have no problem with someone doing. Note that the first is a problem of diagnosis, not protocol. If you said "this is a shortness of breath call, r/o sepsis", then you don't have to start on the CHF protocol at all. This example is also why Lasix is no longer a standing order in NYC for CHF, because it kept being given in patients who had pneumonia.

The second case there was a protocol that said he could give the duoneb, so he would have been covered.

I don't deny that protocols are generally guidelines, and do not force you to do things that don't make sense. But they also tend to set limits on certain treatments. I just don't want some rookie medic reading this thread who then thinks "I can do whatever I feel like, because these are just guidelines."

Clearly the more reasonable the reason and the smaller the violation the less of a big deal it is. But for the rookies out there:

1: You must know what your protocols say.
2: If you think about giving a treatment that is not justified by a protocol, or want to withhold something considered a standard of care, your first instinct should be to call medical control.
3: You should be ready to call your supervisor/medical control immediately after the call and explain what you did and why. If you are on the call and think "i'll do this and it'll be fine as long as no one finds out" you already know it's the wrong thing to do.
 
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If you are on the call and think "i'll do this and it'll be fine as long as no one finds out" you already know it's the wrong thing to do.

This is great

I am going to add this to the line of:

"Always ask yourself how this is going to look on the evening news."
 
Alot of good info here gentlemen! Re-read the textbook and got a better understanding of it.
 
True, but I think if someone went outside of their protocols in a big way it wouldn't take much effort for the medical director to have action taken against that employee, especially if it wasn't the first time.

This assumes the medical director actually cares. In my EMS career I can count on one hand the ones I met who actually do.

In many agencies, everything from QA to remedial training is handled by non physician providers in a position of "leadership."

It also assumes that the medical director actually hears about it. In all forms of EMS not only is the good old boy network alive and strong, but the very nature of EMS permits many mistakes and poor practices to never be noticed.

When I worked for an FD, in order to terminate an employee, the employee had to be written up 3 times for the same infraction. Unions protect the most undeserving, I know of no medical director who is willing to take on a local IAFF.

Note that the first is a problem of diagnosis, not protocol. If you said "this is a shortness of breath call, r/o sepsis", then you don't have to start on the CHF protocol at all. This example is also why Lasix is no longer a standing order in NYC for CHF, because it kept being given in patients who had pneumonia.

This is the great dilemma of our time. Do we taake things away from poor providers or do we raise the level of the providers?

I am of the mind we should raise the provider level, stop taking tools out of the box, and start teaching people to use the ones they have. I have said this many times: How many field medics actually take a temperature on every patient? It is a vital sign. SPo2 is not a vital sign. Every patient in the hospital gets their temperature taken. Why is EMS excused from even taking a full set of vitals?

One of the reasons I am reducing my involvement in EMS (except for this board it seems) is because they need to be raised up to put more tools in the box to fulfill the eventual role of being out of hospital providers as opposed to prehospital providers. Otherwise, they have no hope of being anything more than overpaid taxi drivers. With the impending collapse of the US healthcare system, I would not want to be considered overpaid, over used, or under educated. But most in EMS don't want to look any farther in the future than their next bathroom break.


The second case there was a protocol that said he could give the duoneb, so he would have been covered.

That was my point, but many providers who strictly interpret protocols only ever pick one and follow it to the point where they have to call. It is impossible to properly treat patients by picking a single protocol from a single dx. That is my whole issue with strict interpretation of protocol.

I don't deny that protocols are generally guidelines, and do not force you to do things that don't make sense. But they also tend to set limits on certain treatments. I just don't want some rookie medic reading this thread who then thinks "I can do whatever I feel like, because these are just guidelines."

Some of the more senior medics are just as dangerous. However usually not because they were making something up, but because they always do things the way they were done 10 or more years ago.
 
Mike, I was thinking the same thing. Doesn't each county have a protocol book with detailed information in it? Your information was great.

~ L
 
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