NYC EMTs get EpiPens

[bstone]

It wasn't BLS administration. It was ALS administration by an EMT.

I love how you are splitting hairs. You do realize that every intervention I provide is ILS, correct?

 

[AJ Hidell]

I love how you are splitting hairs. You do realize that every intervention I provide is ILS, correct?

It is not hair splitting. It is applying the proper terms to what you are doing.

Would you rather me tell you that you're not really ALS? I don't get why someone who is practicing ALS would go out of their way to deny it, as if there is some shame in that.

 

[bstone]

It is not hair splitting. It is applying the proper terms to what you are doing.

Would you rather me tell you that you're not really ALS? I don't get why someone who is practicing ALS would go out of their way to deny it, as if there is some shame in that.

Ok dude. Have a great day!

 

[CAOX3]

I would agree any med administration would be considered an advanced skill

 

[Airwaygoddess]

Patient care from BLS to ALS

With the proper education and trainning, an Epi-pen can be given to the patient that requires it. Now I strongly believe that certain skills and medications must be kept to the paramedic scope of practice. Proper education, theory, and skills must be taught and maintained, from the EMT-B level to the paramedic. The ultimate goal is to provide great patient care from the BLS level to the ALS level and working together as a team.

Respectfully submitted.

 

[trevor1189]

These word games are above you, Aidey. They require a physicians order. Therefore, they are ALS. Period.

Again, we're not labelling the people administering the intervention. We are labelling the intervention itself. You are neither ALS nor BLS. You are an EMT. The interventions you provide are both ALS and BLS.

The problem with attempting to label advanced interventions as "BLS" is that it cheapens the seriousness of that intervention, causing way too many providers to take them for granted with the typical EMT attitude of, "Well, it's just BLS, so it's not really that dangerous", which could not be farther from the truth. Instead of reclassifying Epi as BLS, why don't you reclassify yourself as ALS, take pride in that privilege, and accept it in a professional manner rather than arguing with the people who have spent three decades paving the way for you to have that privilege?

1. EMTs using Basic life support interventions are working off of a physicians orders as well... Just because a physician ordered it doesn't make it ALS.

2. Because I have seen the difference in what is carried on an ALS ambulance and a BLS ambulance. An epi pen certainly doesn't qualify one as an Advanced Life Support Rig.

 

[CAOX3]

Its not about the method of delivery, its about the fact that you are administering a medication for a desired effect. Which would constitue and advanced procedure.

 

[Ridryder911]

1. EMTs using Basic life support interventions are working off of a physicians orders as well... Just because a physician ordered it doesn't make it ALS.

2. Because I have seen the difference in what is carried on an ALS ambulance and a BLS ambulance. An epi pen certainly doesn't qualify one as an Advanced Life Support Rig.

And exactly what expertise do you have to determine such? What formal education and experience do you have to make such judgements? Did you serve on medical research committees to the differential of what limited skills and those that can interpret medical findings and outcomes are?

You have seen how many ALS EMS units? Have you reviewed each State or even the State of New York requirement and medical definition of what ALS services requires to make and define them as such?

Do you really know what the "legal" definition of ALS is (what resources) even or even what the legality of Medical Practice Act you were implying?

Not just picking on you, but there are so many self acclaimed experts that have never formally studied or acted upon these roles that only offer their self opinion and are not based upon facts, just only false information.

p.s. yes, I have the formal education and experience.

R/r 911

 

[Scott33]

Its not about the method of delivery, its about the fact that you are administering a medication for a desired effect. Which would constitue and advanced procedure.

Agreed :beerchug:

 

[Shishkabob]

Just so we're all on the same page;

Aj
Is providing someone with oxygen Advanced Life Support?

 

[bstone]

Just so we're all on the same page;

Aj
Is providing someone with oxygen Advanced Life Support?

I asked Aj this question. As O2 is my Rx only, then by Aj's definition it's an ALS intervention being done by an EMT-Basic.

Am I wrong?

 

[rhan101277]

I think that EMT-B's should be trained at the minimum to be able to administer EPI-Pens and albuterol via nebulizer. It may take more training but if you are on a basic truck there is a chance you could go on a call.

I mean you can bag the patient if needed and treat for shock. That is still time when the organs aren't getting perfused as well as they could have been with proper medications. Certain life or death issues we need to be trained to give proper medication for. Maybe they should include A&P I and II for all EMT-Basic training nationwide and add a couple of meds.

 

[bstone]

I think that EMT-B's should be trained at the minimum to be able to administer EPI-Pens and albuterol via nebulizer. It may take more training but if you are on a basic truck there is a chance you could go on a call.

I mean you can bag the patient if needed and treat for shock. That is still time when the organs aren't getting perfused as well as they could have been with proper medications. Certain life or death issues we need to be trained to give proper medication for. Maybe they should include A&P I and II for all EMT-Basic training nationwide and add a couple of meds.

I am always in favor of adding more education and skills to match that education.

 

[AJ Hidell]

I asked Aj this question. As O2 is my Rx only, then by Aj's definition it's an ALS intervention being done by an EMT-Basic.

Am I wrong?

No, you are correct. ALS being performed by an EMT is still ALS, just like BLS being performed by a paramedic is still BLS. There is really no intelligent way to dispute that.

I think that EMT-B's should be trained at the minimum to be able to administer EPI-Pens and albuterol via nebulizer. It may take more training but if you are on a basic truck there is a chance you could go on a call.

I totally agree. And that "more training" should take about two years.

 

[Ridryder911]

Actually, medical care is medical care and only EMS has the divisions of identification of separation. Agreed, medical care (such as medications) should not be administered from anyone with less than an associate degree.

R/r 911

 

[daedalus]

If an Epi Pen is in the BLS Scope of Practice then it is not an ALS intervention. It is considered BLS intervention... You can't just lump prescription drug administration as ALS like you did.

Trevor, you are very very wrong. Medical care is medical care. Drug administration, esp epinephrine, is ADVANCED life support. I agree with Rid/ryder, only EMS separates and defines different levels of care.

 

[daedalus]

I love how you are splitting hairs. You do realize that every intervention I provide is ILS, correct?

AJ is not splitting hairs. There is a important lesson to be learned here, and a lot of you are missing it. Administering medication is an ALS "skill". Oxygen does not count because lay people are allowed its use. However, medication administration is a very serious responsibility, and one only has to watch new RN student's terrified faces as they are lectured about med errors the day before their first hospital clinical to realize that. It is an advanced intervention that takes a solid knowledge in chemistry, anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology to safely preform.

 

[nomofica]

I agree with the people who say that it is an ALS intervention.

Any drug administration, save Oxygen, is considered advanced intervention. Just because a BLS knows how to administer and its in the BLS scope of practice doesn't mean that it is now a basic intervention. It is just a BLS who has that specific ALS skill.

 

[rmellish]

It is an advanced intervention that takes a solid knowledge in chemistry, anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology to safely preform.

Agreed, unfortunately it is also performed by plenty of folks with a solid knowledge of label reading....

 

[DavethetrainWreck]

We can carry them on the rig in NJ if all the EMTs are trained in their use and have permission from our medical director. We do get trained in how to use them in our basic class because before we could carry them on the rig we were allowed to administer a patient's own EpiPen if available.