NPA in an "Unresponsive" Pt? Right or Wrong?

You don't need an A line for dopamine.

It is used all the time without one and should continue to be.




I agree that peripheral dopamine can be ok in an emergency, or short term (like in the prehospital setting), but to not being able to monitor real time pressure and the chance of extravasation is something that will not fly in my book! :)
 
One of the very experienced anesthesiologists I know professes that if you go above 15mcg/kg/minute then it is time to start looking for where the bleeding is.

Some patients only require transient dopamine therapy. I think an ICU or invasive monitoring is a bit of overkill in these populations.

But I do agree that if you seem to be using it constantly, the ICU with plenty of monitoring should be the plan.

I guess what I am getting at is the treatment should be dictated by the condition of the patient, not soley by the medication in the case of dopamine.
 
LightsandSiren5.. thanks for sharing that call.... I can sense your desire to help this poor girl. I don't know what your laws are where your at but here in PA EMS (as do all healthcare providers) have a legal obligation to report suspected abuse. Even if the ED staff is made aware and law enforcement is made aware, EMS still has to make their own report. Is it possible to report your suspicions to Children and Youth Services? Your not accusing your just relaying suspicions so someone who is trained can speak to the girl and her family and find out if there is a real problem. If nothing else maybe it will at least give you some peace of mind in knowing that you did all that you could by reporting it.

As for the NPA indication... I would never use an NPA on a patient unless medically indicated. It's not my job to "punish" or make my patient's uncomfortable. And I didn't see any contraindication in using an NPA in this patient. Just because someone has a head injury doesn't mean an NPA can't be used as another user had suggested.
 
One of the very experienced anesthesiologists I know professes that if you go above 15mcg/kg/minute then it is time to start looking for where the bleeding is.

Some patients only require transient dopamine therapy. I think an ICU or invasive monitoring is a bit of overkill in these populations.

But I do agree that if you seem to be using it constantly, the ICU with plenty of monitoring should be the plan.

I guess what I am getting at is the treatment should be dictated by the condition of the patient, not soley by the medication in the case of dopamine.



I can't argue with any of that.

I didn't have an EMS context when I was posting. I don't like titrating maps off of nibp... Especially when Granny has CRI and is in with hgb <8 and a tension hydrothorax ... With a pigtail in place. I mean get your *** out of bed and drop a line or two.
 
I can't argue with any of that.

I didn't have an EMS context when I was posting. I don't like titrating maps off of nibp... Especially when Granny has CRI and is in with hgb <8 and a tension hydrothorax ... With a pigtail in place. I mean get your *** out of bed and drop a line or two.

It is not just about EMS, if you are only using a bit of one inotrope and weening in a few hours post op, there is really no reason to tie up the ICU bed.
 
Well, here is why I ask.

I don't know your local policies, but around here, EMTs are mandated reporters--meaning we need to call CPS directly if we have any suspicion of abuse. Even if you're not, it's worth considering.

Whether I did or not, I would also talk to a hospital chaplain or counselor and see if you can get them to visit her, next time she's in. I'm not sure if the hospital staff would see that as you stepping on their toes, or if they already would've done that, so I'd mention it to them first.

That behavior isn't normal. And usually, when you've got a really bad feeling about a family, something's wrong. It may be hard to substantiate, but that's where the child abuse professionals come in.
 
Hi people,

Thanks for the answers, I appreciate all the advice.

Apparently I am a mandated reported, something I somehow forgot after four years of never having anything to report. I suppose that means I'll be contacting DSHS as soon as I can.

I just don't know what it is. I can't really put a finger on what first got me thinking. Maybe it was just everything together and suddenly it clicked, something isn't right here.

The reason I started with the NPA approach is because that is one thing that bothered me most. She is obviously already scared of something and here I am, strapping her to a backboard and cramming a rubber tube down her nose. Yea....like I would trust me after that.
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The thing that bothered me the most though was that I appeared to be the first person to get the feeling something was up. Each time a crew would pick her up before, they would come back in joking about it and ridiculing her for being such a drama queen and attention grabber. I dreaded having to finally get the call to pick her up, and so when I found out who it was on scene, I was like...Oh groan! But like I said, I decided to treat her like I should, and that is what got me going. (I always attempt to push the "frequent flier mindset" away, even if it is the 20th time I have picked someone up.) In the past, the service has usually picked her up for unresponsiveness and minor seizure like activity, during the day, at school, or right before the bus was supposed to come, at her neighbors house. The ER staff usually did almost nothing for her, chalking it up to her trying to get out of school or something. They would play around for a while, then release her to her parents.

But she has been picked up over and over. For the same type of things. And I don't know why no one felt like I did.

To be frank, I don't know why I felt that way. As to what firetender said, (and yes I am a guy.) I guess I did forget I had a heart in there somewhere. I don't know what it was about seeing a tear run down a little girls face that set me off. I have seen plenty of people cry (I hate it every time.) But I guess there is one call sooner or later that will just get you. And I found mine the other night. I don't know how I can go and see people who have been absolutely squished by farm equipment, or torn open by flying glass and steel from an MVA or full of bullets, all of them dead. Yet here a little girl with no physical problem really, who needs (in my opinion) someone to just love her, bugs me like this! As a care provider I should be showing “love” to her by actually caring for her needs, not according to a cookbook, but to what is actually going on. And it should not take 50 minutes of transport time for me to figure that out.
What good really are we in EMS doing if all we care about, and complain about, is (what was it firetender said?) Pay, calls, shifts, and system abusers? Maybe we should all start caring about the people we run on. I did before, I always have to a certain extent. But I saw it differently before. I don’t really know how I saw it, it was just different. I realize that no matter how trivial the problem, that person in my ambulance believes they have a legitimate need for an ambulance. And regardless of whether or not I agree, that is the person that fate has put in my path and I am the caregiver that fate has handed them. (Yes I agree there are system abusers, who use the ambulance because they think they won’t have to wait in line at the ER. Or who are too lazy to take their sick friend to the ER, but will gladly tailgate you right into the ambulance entrance.) But sometimes granny is truly lonely and despondent, and while no, there isn’t really a medical problem she needs someone to talk to for five minutes. If our job really was about caring, like the #1 Core Value of virtually every agency out there, we would not complain that another crew was getting an MVA while we get to go visit Grandma Fran again for the 10th time this quarter. If people truly cared, someone should have noticed my patient’s problems long ago, last year when she first started being a patient of ours.
I am sure there are times to be a simple flesh mechanic, an ambulance monkey, (no offense Chimpie). Sometimes that is what it takes. If you are bleeding out four different holes and struggling to breathe, I am not going to take the time to sit and talk with you about your 53 cats, (If you really would want to, who knows), I am going to be in automatic mode, trying to multitask (yes girls, I said trying. might not work…but oh well.) But that call the other night, I found myself, right up till almost the end, doing just that. Auto pilot was on. It never should have been.
And maybe that is why I felt terrible, why I kept my poor partner in the dayroom for an extra hour talking, why I went home and cried. I treated that poor child by the book and by the book only, when all she needed from me the whole time was for me to brush the hair out of her eyes and start talking to her.
So that is that for now. I am sure in an hour I could say just as much on an entirely different aspect of the call, but for now I’ll leave it at that. Thanks again everyone. I’ll jeep reading what you people have to say. I hope you don’t mind if I do keep spouting for a while. I think I still need it. :sad:
 
I don't know how I would go about reporting something like that.
I've heard lots of horror stories about child protective services and the stuff they do to families (basically putting children in foster homes on mere suspicion until parents prove that they haven't done anything wrong).
 
I was told it could be used to check responsiveness while getting a patent airway.
 
I don't know how I would go about reporting something like that.
I've heard lots of horror stories about child protective services and the stuff they do to families (basically putting children in foster homes on mere suspicion until parents prove that they haven't done anything wrong).

That is what I am worried about and the main reason I am hesitating. I know the last thing she needs is to be in an abusive situation, whatever kind of abuse is going on. But she also does not need to taken by the state unless there is actually reason to do so.

I know her parents seem off, one is obviously on drugs and the other, I just don't know. Like I said, seems as if nothing is there.

But if I am wrong and report something, I have created the potential of making her problems even worse.

I think I will go talk to our SEI before I do anything. She has been in EMS since 1980 and acts as a kind of shrink for our service. I see her tomorrow when I go help instruct in the basic class. I'll see what she says.
 
I think I will go talk to our SEI before I do anything. She has been in EMS since 1980 and acts as a kind of shrink for our service. I see her tomorrow when I go help instruct in the basic class. I'll see what she says.

Consider making sure, by asking, if it's okay to spend a little time with her first. PRIVATE time. This is not simple or casual and I'd like you to make sure you are in a comfortable situation so that you will not only be free to talk, but HAVE ENOUGH TIME to explore and go through some of the changes you must. It's good you express yourself here, but now, you need a real ear to listen and a real person to help you sort things out.

If she doesn't have the free time or space around that class, MAKE AN APPOINTMENT!

I'm still around.
 
Lights: thats about all you could really do during that call. you made sure that the girl was stable. i understand how this call could get to you. but you started talking to her and she started to respond. Just showing her that you cared enough about her to actually talk and try to figure things out probably made her feel better.
When i was going thru EMT school my instructor told us that him and his partner would get called out often to an elderly female. they figured out that she just wanted the attention. so what they decided to do was tell dispatch that they would be responding from her house. In EMS people still do care about the patient and want to try to figure out whats going on.
When i did my clinical hours we had a 21 year old female who attempted suicide by swallowing a bottle of pills brought to the ER by her friend. she couldnt walk so i grabbed a wheelchair and helped sign her in to the waiting room. she was in bad shape. i did a full assessment in the waiting room. after i was done they still didnt call her name so i thought well i cant just leave her here by herself. so i talked to her for 45 mins as she is getting worse and worse and redoing my assessment every 5 mins until her name was called. but i got her to smile and laugh. then when she was in the ER her parents came and started cussing her out. security came and took them away from her.
Just the fact that you cared and just didn't assume she was faking was perfect. i know we arent shrinks but a persons mood can really effect a patient. I would have ran that call the way you did. and report it like you are doing. (i know this has nothing to do with NPA's but im not trying to hijack a thread. just showing support)
 
Brown thinketh if the patient does not respond after a quick sternal rub and jaw thrust pop in an OPA, if they have too much of a gag reflex to tolerate that then put an NPA up (down) thier shnoz.
 
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