Now here's a toughy

Shishkabob

Shishkabob

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After reading the other thread about c-collars and getting to an accident scene, I thought of this; (don't know if this should be in the scenario section)


Say out of you niceness, and not whackerness, you stop at a 2 car MVC. After assessing the 2 PT's, you go hold C-spine of one complaining of neck pain. While waiting on EMS to arrive, the other PT goes in to cardiac arrest. You let go of c-spine to go over and do CPR.

Later on, the person you were holding c-spine for is found to be paralyzed.




Do you think litigation against you from the paraplegic could win?

Abandonment?
 
Whilst holding C-spine restriction on pt. #1, I would start CPR on pt. #2 with my foot,then start b/l 14g. :beerchug:
 
Since you are stopping as a civilian and not as a responder, you have no duty to act. You are a good samaritan, and therefore, the good samaritan law of the state you are in would apply.

Since you have no duty to act, there is no abandonment. Most likely, given the limited info (yes, I realize this is a hypothetical situation), litigation against you would be unsuccessful.
 
If you were the only one there at the time, you would be covered in the Good Samaritan Law. However, with you being the only one there, you are in an MCI for yourself. You try to save only those you can. For the person who just lost their VS, they're dead. Leave them and stay with the C-spine.
 
Linuss said:
After reading the other thread about c-collars and getting to an accident scene, I thought of this; (don't know if this should be in the scenario section)


Say out of you niceness, and not whackerness, you stop at a 2 car MVC. After assessing the 2 PT's, you go hold C-spine of one complaining of neck pain. While waiting on EMS to arrive, the other PT goes in to cardiac arrest. You let go of c-spine to go over and do CPR.

Later on, the person you were holding c-spine for is found to be paralyzed.




Do you think litigation against you from the paraplegic could win?

Abandonment?
Click to expand...

Lets say I stop of whacerness, does this change the situation?
 
MSDeltaFlt said:
If you were the only one there at the time, you would be covered in the Good Samaritan Law. However, with you being the only one there, you are in an MCI for yourself. You try to save only those you can. For the person who just lost their VS, they're dead. Leave them and stay with the C-spine.
Click to expand...

Very well said... that is the same reply I was just about to type.

You will be covered under the good samaritan law, and therefor a lot of the laws that apply, while your at work, no longer are in effect.

But, since you have training for situations like this, and even though you are considered a "good samaritan" in this case... use you knowledge. Treat it as if it were an MCI (which it is, since your by yourself) and go for the pt that is most viable. Remember, dead from trauma is dead from trauma.

Take Care,
 
tydek07 said:
Very well said... that is the same reply I was just about to type.

Treat it as if it were an MCI (which it is, since your by yourself) and go for the pt that is most viable. Remember, dead from trauma is dead from trauma.

Take Care,
Click to expand...
We did the smart triage training and the most viable patient would be saved in an MCI. Unless there was some way you could stabilize the C-Spine patient and then take care of the Cardiac patient then you must stay with the one that can most likely survive. In this type of triage you check for breathing and if they are not breathing on their own, you open the airway and if they do not start breathing on their own you must move on to the next patient who can maybe be saved. It sort of goes against all we have been trained to do!

Now to add to this dilemma what if the C-Spine patient also went into cardiac arrest? you would have to say Airway Airway Airway and let go of the stabilization and go into resciusitation - right? Then if they are revived could they sue you for bringing them back to a life as a paraplegic? I do not think so but who knows in this day and age.
 
Linuss said:
After reading the other thread about c-collars and getting to an accident scene, I thought of this; (don't know if this should be in the scenario section)


Say out of you niceness, and not whackerness, you stop at a 2 car MVC. After assessing the 2 PT's, you go hold C-spine of one complaining of neck pain. While waiting on EMS to arrive, the other PT goes in to cardiac arrest. You let go of c-spine to go over and do CPR.

Later on, the person you were holding c-spine for is found to be paralyzed.




Do you think litigation against you from the paraplegic could win?

Abandonment?
Click to expand...

I would avoid any and all possible litigation by staying in my vehicle and calling the proper authorities.
 
RSQRYDER said:
I would avoid any and all possible litigation by staying in my vehicle and calling the proper authorities.
Click to expand...

Seriously? C'mon...

I have found a very easy way of "Taking C-Spine" is to simply tell the patient to NOT move their head. Don't nod, just stare straight ahead. Some reason it has worked a few times when I'm not working...


That allows you to assess any other patients.
 
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Actually while good samaritin could protect to some extent your supposedly being an educated professional they would still consider what another person with same education/certification should do. Standard is once you began treatment, not triage, by taking c-spine you could not abandon that patient. So in your scenario you abandoned your patient despite your education saying not to and you willing had taken charge so you would lose in court. Hope you have liability insurance.
 
Linuss said:
After reading the other thread about c-collars and getting to an accident scene, I thought of this; (don't know if this should be in the scenario section)


Say out of you niceness, and not whackerness, you stop at a 2 car MVC. After assessing the 2 PT's, you go hold C-spine of one complaining of neck pain. While waiting on EMS to arrive, the other PT goes in to cardiac arrest. You let go of c-spine to go over and do CPR.

Later on, the person you were holding c-spine for is found to be paralyzed.




Do you think litigation against you from the paraplegic could win?

Abandonment?
Click to expand...
Unfortunately because of recent california court decisions, I will never be stopping at an accident. Ever.

It actually pains me to say that. At least I will not have to worry about the scenario you presented, its a tricky one. Obviously ABC comes before Cervical precautions, but a lawyer may not see it that way.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Heres another piece of advice...


Don't give your name/info out to anyone on scene ;) Just be that "Annonmoys hero" ;)
 
daedalus said:
Unfortunately because of recent california court decisions, I will never be stopping at an accident. Ever.

It actually pains me to say that. At least I will not have to worry about the scenario you presented, its a tricky one. Obviously ABC comes before Cervical precautions, but a lawyer may not see it that way.
Click to expand...

The good sam law in NY never applied to us due to the fact that we are trained. I ave stopped at several with no issues.

My experience in stopping at accidents, as far as legal liability is concerned, has been that the cops could care less who you are. They don't care what treatment you did or did not do. Cops want to know if you were involved in or witnessed the accident. If I wasn't/didn't, they move on to those who were. If the FD is dispatched they go right to stabilizing the vehicle, preventing fires, popping doors etc. With EMS, they will take a report and take over. They may take the extra set of hands for backboarding and loading. They also have never taken my name down. I have never done alot more than hold C-Spine, basic assessments and some first aid.

In the above situation I would be with the person with neck pain. Its an MCI as far as I am concerned. I can not help someone in tramatic arrests and someone with severe tramatic injuries at the same time. If they somehow get my name and sue me, they are going to have to show I could handle 2 critical patients at once with no supplies.
 
About what I would have said too, fire.

Also, Good Sam doesn't cover trained professionals in Texas either.
 
Linuss said:
Good Sam doesn't cover trained professionals in Texas either.
Click to expand...

Who does the good sam law protect then? Untrained laymen trying to help? That dosen't make sense to me.

I thought good sam laws were there to protect anyone trying to help. Isn't CPR a type of training? If you do improper CPR but were trained...lawsuit? :unsure:
 
"Persons not liscensed in the healing arts who in good faith administer emergency care"

Yeah, kinda stupid but I guess at the same time we're supposed to know enough to avoid as much litigation as possible in their view.
 
firecoins said:
The good sam law in NY never applied to us due to the fact that we are trained. I ave stopped at several with no issues.

My experience in stopping at accidents, as far as legal liability is concerned, has been that the cops could care less who you are. They don't care what treatment you did or did not do. Cops want to know if you were involved in or witnessed the accident. If I wasn't/didn't, they move on to those who were. If the FD is dispatched they go right to stabilizing the vehicle, preventing fires, popping doors etc. With EMS, they will take a report and take over. They may take the extra set of hands for backboarding and loading. They also have never taken my name down. I have never done alot more than hold C-Spine, basic assessments and some first aid.

In the above situation I would be with the person with neck pain. Its an MCI as far as I am concerned. I can not help someone in tramatic arrests and someone with severe tramatic injuries at the same time. If they somehow get my name and sue me, they are going to have to show I could handle 2 critical patients at once with no supplies.
Click to expand...
This is all how common sense would dictate these things be handled right? I wish that your case was the same as ours in California, but the high court here ruled in favor of a women suing her friend/co-worker who tried to rescue her after an accident. There was a thread about this in the News forum.
 
Hockey9019 said:
Seriously? C'mon...
Click to expand...

The topic of stopping for accidents or not has been beaten to death around here but a quick search will show that it's about a 50/50 split here with seemingly the more experienced opting not to render any aid other than a phone call to 911.

In my state as long as I'm not paid by anyone for my time on scene I am covered by good samaritan. However good sam still doesn't make me invincible to other things that scare me more than lawyers such as cars doing 70mph that sort of thing.
 
Linuss said:
"Persons not liscensed in the healing arts who in good faith administer emergency care"
Click to expand...


I know I am just a student (and some people could give a rats a$s on what I think), but are EMT-(A,B,C..Z)'s considered "licensed in the healing arts..." or just life support as some of my instructors have said?

And another question. If I have to be employed by an EMS service to be an EMT, then would it not make sense that if I am off duty I am not an EMT since I am not working under that service at the moment? (all depending on your duty to act laws).
 
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