Narcan

trauma1534 said:
duh... I don't know how~

I can't read maps. Maybe I need to go back to college and take up map reading major! :-P
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Getting an education is not anything one should make light of, however they should strive for excelence in the highest level of education they an acheive, especially when trying to call themselves saving lives.

EMS is a messed up system. I think one should have atlease a Bachler's degree to be able to provide patient care in any field. There should not be all these different levels. We should just have one level and that's it. A BS-Paramedic at a min. With CC.

In order to teach, one should possess a Master's degree when dealing with teaching meds and saving lives.
 
MeckRS83 said:
Getting an education is not anything one should make light of, however they should strive for excelence in the highest level of education they an acheive, especially when trying to call themselves saving lives.

EMS is a messed up system. I think one should have atlease a Bachler's degree to be able to provide patient care in any field. There should not be all these different levels. We should just have one level and that's it. A BS-Paramedic at a min. With CC.

In order to teach, one should possess a Master's degree when dealing with teaching meds and saving lives.
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Ok.. now that is pushing it too far!!! Alot of great providers in EMS don't have the means to recieve that much education. We already have to get more recert time than RN's! And they have master's! All they have to do to keep thier license is to pay a fee and there you have it. No con-ed or anything. How do they keep up on the latest?

That idea is just pure out crazy! We would loose most of our really good providers that way. We definatly would not have any instructors left!

When the states or agencies can start funding such educations, then maybe we can talk. Until then, make the best of what we have. EMS does alot for patients in the pre-hospital setting, just like it is today!
 
How is it pushing it too far when all I am saying is that we need to raise the standards and then we won't have Mr. Joe Blow calling himself an EMT setting in the back of the truck in bib overhauls with tobacco stains in the corners of his mouth, calling himself providing patient care with a 4th grade education. Do you know that you don't even have to have a high school deploma to be an EMT-B?
 
MeckRS83 said:
How is it pushing it too far when all I am saying is that we need to raise the standards and then we won't have Mr. Joe Blow calling himself an EMT setting in the back of the truck in bib overhauls with tobacco stains in the corners of his mouth, calling himself providing patient care with a 4th grade education. Do you know that you don't even have to have a high school deploma to be an EMT-B?
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Well, I'll tell you one thing, some of those 4th grade educated, tobacco spitting, bib overhaul wearing EMT's are sharp! You don't have to have a degree to have common since! Heck, sometimes I'd be just as happy with Joe Blow in my truck assisting me than to have the highest medic in the state with a big head. Joe Blow will set up my line without an argument. Joe Blow will assess vitals for me when I am working on other things. Joe Blow is willing to help. Mr. Paragod is there just to show me how much he knows not to treat that patient.
 
To Change the topic... I had an OD this weekend... medic gave him 2mg of Narcan, and he started breathing again... what a wonderful thing :)
 
Jon said:
To Change the topic... I had an OD this weekend... medic gave him 2mg of Narcan, and he started breathing again... what a wonderful thing :)
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Obviously he had not really stopped breathing all together. Narcan is a wonderful drug. But, I disagree with giving the who 2 of Narcan. You titrate to resp. improvement.
 
MeckRS83 said:
Obviously he had not really stopped breathing all together. Narcan is a wonderful drug. But, I disagree with giving the who 2 of Narcan. You titrate to resp. improvement.
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Oh... He'd stopped breathing. He had a resp. rate of 0 and was tolerating an oral airway well - until the medic woke him and he spit it out.

As for the speed and amount... I know what you are saying, but I'm not an EMT-P... the medic gave it as a somewhat-slow IV Push... The patient slowly woke up, then sat up, and was very unhappy that we'd cut his shirt off. He also didn't want to go to the hospital, because "he didn't remember not breathing"
 
Jon said:
Oh... He'd stopped breathing. He had a resp. rate of 0 and was tolerating an oral airway well - until the medic woke him and he spit it out.

As for the speed and amount... I know what you are saying, but I'm not an EMT-P... the medic gave it as a somewhat-slow IV Push... The patient slowly woke up, then sat up, and was very unhappy that we'd cut his shirt off. He also didn't want to go to the hospital, because "he didn't remember not breathing"
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Go figure! LOL Pissed because you cut his shirt off! You know what you could have done then... told him to press hard, 3 copys! Treat and release baby!!
 
trauma1534 said:
Go figure! LOL Pissed because you cut his shirt off! You know what you could have done then... told him to press hard, 3 copys! Treat and release baby!!
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Can't do that here, once you give the Narcan they go to the ER. Anyone who OD's has to go to the ER, they lose the chance to decide for themselves. The only 2 drugs we can give someone and then waiver are D50 and albuterol. Everyone else who gets meds goes to the ER. Period. OD's that dont want to go get EPC'd and then get the ambulance ride.
 
FFEMT1764 said:
Can't do that here, once you give the Narcan they go to the ER. Anyone who OD's has to go to the ER, they lose the chance to decide for themselves. The only 2 drugs we can give someone and then waiver are D50 and albuterol. Everyone else who gets meds goes to the ER. Period. OD's that dont want to go get EPC'd and then get the ambulance ride.
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Then good luck on your lawsuit if someone refuses transport and you take them anyway! Does the term Kidnap mean ring a bell?
 
In SC if you overdose the law says you are no longer able to make competent decisions, and we can take someone against their will. We always have SO on scene for OD's, and if needed the we ask them to place the individual in Emergency Protective Custody, and then we transport them, once in custody they also lose the right to choose what they do.
 
FFEMT1764 said:
In SC if you overdose the law says you are no longer able to make competent decisions, and we can take someone against their will. We always have SO on scene for OD's, and if needed the we ask them to place the individual in Emergency Protective Custody, and then we transport them, once in custody they also lose the right to choose what they do.
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I don't know about South Carolina law but in the Federal System even Inmates have the right to refuse any and all treatment.

You have woken them up they are A&O x 4 then they have the right to refuse. If you take them then it is false imprisonment. If you touch them it is Battery. If you threaten them it is Assualt.

If you have them EPCed then the county is responsable for there medical bills. And this day and time of budget troubles the EPC's are becoming less and less. If the pt. is compantant then most law enforcement angency's are not going to arrest someone just so you can take them to the ED. You have to have a reason like the Pt. stateing that they tried to kill themselves, they have drugs on them, or something like that. Is this right I don't make the laws so I don't know. I just do what is in the best intrest of my Dept. and myself and that is try to do what is best for my Pt. If I can talk the Pt. into going to the ED then great thats what will happen if I can't I try again. I look for ways to make the LEO to place them into PC. If all fails ask the Pt. what Funeral Home the request because that mybe the one that comes back to pick them up. This sometimes works, but sometimes it doesn't.
 
I see your point, and respect it, and that is why I personally don't give the narcan until I am already enroute. That way when they wake up we are at the ER and then they can refuse in the ER if they want. The whole OD thing is that if they took the OD then they tried to harm themselves, and here in SC it is against the law to attempt suicide...though it's legal if you succeed...go figure...

Of course to add to the whacky laws on the books here on Wednesday at noon you can take your wife to the courthouse steps and beat her in public...still legal in the law books but I wouldn't want to try it and see if the PD upholds that law.
 
FFEMT1764 said:
I see your point, and respect it, and that is why I personally don't give the narcan until I am already enroute. That way when they wake up we are at the ER and then they can refuse in the ER if they want. The whole OD thing is that if they took the OD then they tried to harm themselves, and here in SC it is against the law to attempt suicide...though it's legal if you succeed...go figure...

Of course to add to the whacky laws on the books here on Wednesday at noon you can take your wife to the courthouse steps and beat her in public...still legal in the law books but I wouldn't want to try it and see if the PD upholds that law.
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This has been my practice. It keeps me out of the funny papers.

Now as far as the OD thing. We had a Pt that had ODed on narcotics that were prescribed for pain. He did not mean to do it but he had brain CA and could not remember taking them, so he took more.
 
jeepmedic said:
Now as far as the OD thing. We had a Pt that had ODed on narcotics that were prescribed for pain. He did not mean to do it but he had brain CA and could not remember taking them, so he took more.
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In that particular instance I would still want to transport the gentleman to the ED just so they could evaluate him for a different med, and maybe get him some home health to admin his meds so he doesnt have to worry about remembering them all the time.
 
FFEMT1764 said:
In that particular instance I would still want to transport the gentleman to the ED just so they could evaluate him for a different med, and maybe get him some home health to admin his meds so he doesnt have to worry about remembering them all the time.
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We did and also contacted his CA Dr. and it all worked out.
 
That good. The good things that come from our work are what keep us all involved in EMS, as it is certainly not the pay!
 
My guy got the "go with us, or go with them (PD)" speech... that, and the danwing realization that his life had just been saved by the SAME medic that did it over the summer when he <PROPBABLY> took Fentinyl Heroin.... he thought going would be a good idea after all.
 
Yep, gotta love repeat offenders!
 
Jon said:
My guy got the "go with us, or go with them (PD)" speech... that, and the danwing realization that his life had just been saved by the SAME medic that did it over the summer when he <PROPBABLY> took Fentinyl Heroin.... he thought going would be a good idea after all.
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I have heard that the going thing now is to get used Fentinyl patches and cut them up separate them then take whats left of the medication SL. Anyone else heard this?
 
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