MVA, occupants deny injury. How do you document this?

Trashtruck

Forum Captain
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What to do?

Non-Patient form.
Collect name, DOB, sex, and race. Then they sign our 'Non-Patient' form saying they don't need us, don't want us, never called for us, aren't injured/ill, don't want to go to the hospital, and some other lawyer-speak saying we're not liable for anything if we leave. No exam. No call to docs.
 

Epi-do

I see dead people
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Don't you guys fill out RMS-type reports? (Rescue Management Software from Zoll is what we use). That is what the county uses to track types of calls, units that respond, etc. Every call that is dispatched requires an RMS report to be filed, whether it's a Fire, Water Rescue, MVC, Refusal, or cancellation en route.

We only fill out an MIR/ePCR if there is a patient refusal (or transport obviously). We don't fill out a PCR for an assist (lifting grandma into her chair) or if we roll up and don't have a patient - whether that means there is no patient to be found, or any possible patient found on-scene is agreed to not need medical services. If they don't want medical services and we agree there is no need, a refusal isn't usually obtained.

We use 24/7 instead of RMS, but it is essentially the same thing. The station log is also maintained within the same program, so it's all linked.
 

usafmedic45

Forum Deputy Chief
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JJ - you are also in Howard County, which has the luxury of not needing the helo's all that much. State-wide, things are different. Other counties rely on the choppers extensively. Dispatch has been known to pre-alert the helo as well - I have been on a number of calls (in Howard County) where the chopper was already in the air en route before I had done a full assessment and called them off.

Considering the only time I am more than 30 minutes from a Trauma Center (be it Shock Trauma, Hopkins, or Sinai) is during a football game or a blizzard, I have never had a patient that required flight. Between ETA, packaging, and flight into Baltimore, it rarely makes sense to use HEMS in Howard County outside of extenuating circumstances (it took me 15 minutes to drive Priority 1 from the Mall to the Hospital on July 4th - total trip 1.8 miles)

I've also personally witnessed a few cases where MSP troopers called for the helicopter without consulting the EMS personnel, including one literally three minutes by ground from a hospital (Level II trauma center if I remember).
 

Jon

Administrator
Community Leader
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I'm just curious how y'all would document this:

Vehicle off the road on the interstate in a thunderstorm. Occupants out walking around on arrival, stating they are uninjured. They say they were restrained, describe how the accident happened, and thank you for your time but deny need for EMS.

If you had to pick from this list, which would you choose:

Treated and released
Patient refused treatment
No EMS needed
Standby only

It seems so clear to me that no EMS needed is the right answer, but that one requires name, demographics, full assessment, etc in order to have a "complete" PCR.

I maintain that in order for me to need to document a full patient refusal, you have to be a patient in the first place, which uninjured people are not.

What would you do/say? I am just collected opinions other than my own before I go to address this issue.

Not sure why No EMS Needed asks for patient info - seems counter-intuitive. Around here, I'm able to use that choice and it goes straight to the narrative screen.

And every service I work with (PA) requires a PCR/run sheet for every dispatch, including recalls/cancels/no service calls.


Have you met usaf?
Yup. I have.
I also got to see him discuss this, and similar cases, at a recent conference. And have lunch with him, too. He is almost as sexy in person as in his avatar.

JJ - you are also in Howard County, which has the luxury of not needing the helo's all that much. State-wide, things are different. Other counties rely on the choppers extensively. Dispatch has been known to pre-alert the helo as well - I have been on a number of calls (in Howard County) where the chopper was already in the air en route before I had done a full assessment and called them off.

Considering the only time I am more than 30 minutes from a Trauma Center (be it Shock Trauma, Hopkins, or Sinai) is during a football game or a blizzard, I have never had a patient that required flight. Between ETA, packaging, and flight into Baltimore, it rarely makes sense to use HEMS in Howard County outside of extenuating circumstances (it took me 15 minutes to drive Priority 1 from the Mall to the Hospital on July 4th - total trip 1.8 miles)
And?
Because it hasn't shown up in this thread yet, I present, for your veiwing pleasure, The One With the Mechanism of Injury :p
[YOUTUBE]YzYxz_uvtSI[/YOUTUBE]
 
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dixie_flatline

Forum Captain
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And?
Because it hasn't shown up in this thread yet, I present, for your veiwing pleasure, The One With the Mechanism of Injury :p

I was trying desperately not to completely derail the original question with this video.:rofl:
 

Jon

Administrator
Community Leader
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I was trying desperately not to completely derail the original question with this video.:rofl:
Thank you for your discretion. And allowing me the opportunity to share such a gem.
 

usafmedic45

Forum Deputy Chief
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I also got to see him discuss this, and similar cases, at a recent conference. And have lunch with him, too. He is almost as sexy in person as in his avatar.

Kat says "Get it right. He's much sexier in person. Oh, and tell Jon he can't flirt with you because you're mine."
 
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