Medic To RN

[VFlutter]

There are nursing diploma mills as surely as there are medic mills. Granted the institutional standards may be a BIT higher, but there's still a air bit of bad education out there.

Normally nursing diploma programs are through a hospital and graduates of the program are hired into the hospital on graduation. You do not see diploma nurses graduating and getting major hospital jobs. Most will go to nursing homes. The number of diploma programs has drastically reduced over the past few years, I guarantee much fewer than medic mills.

The difference is that those medics who graduate through medic mills will hit the streets and function just like all the other medics out there. At least with nursing their job market is ridiculously limited.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

At most of international jobs I have worked the nurses seem to consider the paramedic a higher level of health care provider. Can you imagine that!? That would be unherd of in the USA but parts of the EU, and Australia seem to think that and if you look at there paramedic education its an undergraduate degree or multiple years of training/education. I am just thankful I get to bare the same title as them. Every other modern western country that has paramedics has a higher standard... I am hoping USA can catch up, then again I have not been back to the states for 3 years for a good reason ;-)

 

[hogwiley]

The fact many hospitals are now apparently only hiring BSNs shows how overcrowded even nursing is getting.

I have no real opinion on whethers theres a big difference in quality between a BSN and ADN. The hospital I work at hires both, although they do seem to prefer BSNs.

I have noticed the student nurses who are in the ADN program seem to perform a lot better at my hospital, but thats probably because they are required to have their CNA before being accepted and have to get their LPN after the first year, so they arent like a deer in the headlights during their early clinicals like some of the BSN program students.

 

[VFlutter]

The fact many hospitals are now apparently only hiring BSNs shows how overcrowded even nursing is getting.

I have no real opinion on whethers theres a big difference in quality between a BSN and ADN. The hospital I work at hires both, although they do seem to prefer BSNs.

I have noticed the student nurses who are in the ADN program seem to perform a lot better at my hospital, but thats probably because they are required to have their CNA before being accepted and have to get their LPN after the first year, so they arent like a deer in the headlights during their early clinicals like some of the BSN program students.

It really depends on your area but I wouldn't say nursing is overcrowded. Many schools are moving towards BSNs so there are less and less ADN programs out there. Also teaching hospitals must have a certain percentage of BSNs to maintain magnet status and other benefits.

Also you are not required to have your CNA before going to nursing school. At least not at any school around here. You are not an LPN after the first year. It is an entirely different program and licensing exam. You must graduate from an LPN and pass the NCLEX-PN. ADN and BSN are very close in clinical and science. A BSN adds a lot of management, research, philosophy, etc. so there should not be a huge difference in clinical performance. Diploma programs are pretty much 100% clinical and vocational training and usually perform better in the first 6 months.

 

[NYMedic828]

My current program


RN to ADN
https://my.excelsior.edu/c/document...84d-d138-4f59-8b31-df5be9b1f607&groupId=78666



ADN to BSN
https://my.excelsior.edu/c/document...d62-218f-46b0-8c15-83e23fc27e62&groupId=78666


121 credit minimum is substantially more than my 36 credit equivalent medic program. Obviously education cannot be considered one in the same by leaps and bounds.

 

[Shishkabob]

If paramedic education improved maybe one day they could....

If I can easily pass the NCLEX without any further schooling, why not? How is that not the same as a nurse wanting to test out on the NREMT?


It should be a 2-way street or not at all.

 

[NYMedic828]

If I can easily pass the NCLEX without any further schooling, why not? How is that not the same as a nurse wanting to test out on the NREMT?


It should be a 2-way street or not at all.

Because nurses already have 3-5 pure science prerequisites. They already have mathmetics, english, social sciences on top of 5-10 strictly nursing based classes which incorporate far more medical mumbo-jumbo than paramedic educational standards.

All i have as a paramedic is my one uber class that is still only equal to 1 year of college time. One year, versus 4 as a nurse. A nurse has 75% more baseline education, theoretically.

Granted you may learn all of the things a nurse does on your own, but unless its accredited on paper it doesn't matter.


Why can't we paramedics just submit to a college level educational standard with 4 years of educational time? Hell even a 2 year standard is better than where we are now.

Imagine how much more proactive our protocols could be if medical directors actually trusted that everyone under their license was more than likely a competent and extensively educated individual. Maybe we could finally achieve more than being considered a taxi service to definitive care. Wouldn't it be nice if some day we could go to someone's residence, determine they are experiencing an upper respiratory infection and leave them with a script through the medical director for a Z-pack instead of wasting thousands of healthcare dollars for them to go to the hospital?

 

[VFlutter]

If I can easily pass the NCLEX without any further schooling, why not? How is that not the same as a nurse wanting to test out on the NREMT?


It should be a 2-way street or not at all.

I will admit the NCLEX is not that hard but there are a lot of concepts that are specific to nursing that most paramedics would get wrong based on the way they think and analyze situations.

I agree it should be a 2-way street if paramedics had the same education standard as nursing. As I said before, I think RNs with EMT-B should be equal to associate medics with CNA as far as bride opportunitys go.

But I strongly argue that anyone pursuing a RN title should have to take certain college level courses.

I have posted my transcript on this forum before and I have yet to see any paramedic program to come close to the level of education I have gone through.

 

[paccookie]

Because you don't have specifcly laid out nursing classes.

Paramedic has no set college level curriculum for the actual title, nursing has national standards and requirements.

If paramedic broke down into a set of classes with a final licensure exam, it would be a different ball game. But as of now, one mega class isn't gonna fit in anywhere.

Because you don't have specifcly laid out nursing classes.

Paramedic has no set college level curriculum for the actual title, nursing has national standards and requirements.

If paramedic broke down into a set of classes with a final licensure exam, it would be a different ball game. But as of now, one mega class isn't gonna fit in anywhere.

Actually, you are wrong about this. It varies from school to school how the classes are broken down or structured, but the basic curriculum is standardized nationally. Your school may have used "one mega class" but not all of them do that.

This is the curriculum for the paramedic program I graduated from: http://www.darton.edu/catalog/catalogs/2011-2012/files/125-183.pdf#page=45

And here is the curriculum for the ADN program at the same school:

Traditional program:
http://www.darton.edu/programs/nursing/pdfs/201205-Nursing.pdf

Bridge program:
http://www.darton.edu/programs/nursing/pdfs/201205-HealthcareBridge.pdf

While I realize that you have been comparing BSN programs to paramedic, that is really not comparable as paramedic is at best an associates degree.

If you look at the links I posted and compare the courses, there is not a significant difference. Compare the core classes:

Paramedic:
4 hours A&P
1-3 hours math
6 hours English
3 hours US History
3 hours political science
3 hours psychology
3 hours public speaking
2 hours computer/technology
3 hours elective (humanities, social science, business or math/science)

Nurse:
8 hours A&P
4 hours microbiology
0 hours math
6 hour English
3 hours US History
3 hours political science
3 hours psychology
3 hours public speaking
2 hours computer/technology
1-2 hours physical education

So the real difference in the core curriculum is more A&P and microbiology is needed for the medic and math is needed for the nurse.

Comparing the classes for each program, the medic takes 46 hours of EMS classes, broken into specific classes (not one mega class). The nurse takes 40 hours of nursing classes, also broken into specific classes.

 

[paccookie]

I will admit the NCLEX is not that hard but there are a lot of concepts that are specific to nursing that most paramedics would get wrong based on the way they think and analyze situations.

I agree it should be a 2-way street if paramedics had the same education standard as nursing. As I said before, I think RNs with EMT-B should be equal to associate medics with CNA as far as bride opportunitys go.

But I strongly argue that anyone pursuing a RN title should have to take certain college level courses.

I have posted my transcript on this forum before and I have yet to see any paramedic program to come close to the level of education I have gone through.

I will agree with you that nursing requires a different way of thinking. Learning nursing diagnoses has been the most difficult aspect of nursing school for me thus far.

I will also agree that anyone pursuing an RN title should have to take certain college level courses. That said, the ADN nurse is no less competent clinically than the BSN nurse. Having taken more biology or chemistry or English is not going to make you a better clinician. You might have more insight to biological processes or medications, but at the core you're still a nurse. I will also add that anyone pursuing a paramedic title should have to take certain college level courses as well. I think that the A&P and microbiology courses standard for nursing should also be standard for paramedics. Certain math courses should be standard for both.

Your own personal transcript has nothing to do with any paramedic or nursing program. No paramedic or nursing program comes close to equaling the education I have gone through either, primarily because I have taken a wide variety of course while figuring out what I wanted to do.

I also don't think that a nurse with EMT-B cert or a paramedic with a CNA cert is qualified to test at the other's level.

 

[VFlutter]

I will also agree that anyone pursuing an RN title should have to take certain college level courses. That said, the ADN nurse is no less competent clinically than the BSN nurse. Having taken more biology or chemistry or English is not going to make you a better clinician. You might have more insight to biological processes or medications, but at the core you're still a nurse. I will also add that anyone pursuing a paramedic title should have to take certain college level courses as well. I think that the A&P and microbiology courses standard for nursing should also be standard for paramedics. Certain math courses should be standard for both.

Your own personal transcript has nothing to do with any paramedic or nursing program. No paramedic or nursing program comes close to equaling the education I have gone through either, primarily because I have taken a wide variety of course while figuring out what I wanted to do.

I also don't think that a nurse with EMT-B cert or a paramedic with a CNA cert is qualified to test at the other's level.

I do not think anyone is trying to argue that a BSN is clinically superior to an ADN. The extra classes of a BSN are theory and management based not clinical. ADN and BSN programs require the same amount of basic science. And I argue that taking more biology or chemistry does make you a better practitioner. There is a difference between being able to tell your patient their medication is for high blood pressure and actually understanding how their medication works and educating patients on a higher level.

Actually my transcript has everything to do with other programs. I was a nursing major from the beginning and followed a very specific path. Every course I took was specifically taken to meet the prerequisites of nursing school, there were not extra classes that I did not need (Except an extra psych class I took to get a minor). Prereqs for AACN accredited BSN schools are standardized so every BSN that is accredited by the ACCN should have the same requirements, more or less. The point of me pointing out my transcript was to show a standard example of the classes required for a BSN and to compare those to the classes required for paramedics or ADN.

 

[Summit]

It is far easier for a generalist to specialize than for a specialist to generalize.

There are few Medic to RN programs that actually save the student any real time or real money. Most are one or more of the following: give only a fraction of a semester in saved credit, involve exorbitantly expense, or are "shady."

The reason is that, overall, paramedics are specialist technicians in emergency care.

Nurses are educated in general nursing care with general education and exposure to a spectrum of specialties. They then specialize through practice and further education. That is why there are more avenues for RNs to quickly cross to EMS: RNs have the general foundation more readily expanded upon. However, few RNs cross to paramedicine. Most RNs that do are already in the critical care transport field or headed there with extensive critical care and emergency nursing specialty experience and education.

RN is not a "shortcut" into paramedicine. One could do the quickie EMT and Paramedic courses in less time than it takes to do nursing prereqs. Many people interested in Medic-to-RN bridge programs want to use EMS as a shortcut into nursing.

Not all... there are many seasoned medics who want a change in their career. Schools like Excelsior serve these people, but there is a price. There is a subset of experienced provider students can gain much from Excelsior. They often have HUGE HURDLES beyond simply being able to do all their studying on their own. Excelsior is 100% online except for a 3-day simlab exam (that nearly half fail on their first attempt. The biggest problem with Excelsior is that the program has NO CLINICAL COMPONENT. As a result, about 20 states put one of the following limitations on Excelsior graduates:

1. Must practice as an RN in another state for 6 months to 2 years (depending on the state) before applying for RN licensure.
2. Must arrange 100-1000 hours of preceptorships. Excelsior doesn't arrange the clinical; this job falls to the student.
3. May NEVER be licensed as an RN. Period.

For example: Colorado requires the student find their own preceptor for 700 hours (virtually impossible). California essentially bans Excelsior grads from being CA nurses. Excelsior grads who do get licensed may find it harder than other new grad nurses to get a job because they have an AAS degree from an 100% online nursing school and no clinical. Some can leverage their connections from their previous career into a job and find great success.

I looked into Creighton but you need two years ICU for that. There is a 3 month bridge program in Kansas city but I dont live there and it is $4k. I called a local paramedic program and they do not offer any type of bridge and would not credit any classes.

What is the KC program?

 

[VFlutter]

What is the KC program?

UMKC (University of Missouri - Kansas city) has a RN-Medic bridge program

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Just an interesting side note. I use to do some volunteer work as a medic for bicycle rides with a friend I met who was an RN. She explained to me that she went through an accelerated RN program which only took 1 year to complete. This program was for people who already held an undergraduate degree or above.

 

[Summit]

She explained to me that she went through an accelerated RN program which only took 1 year to complete. This program was for people who already held an undergraduate degree or above.

Indeed there are accelerated BSN programs that range from 12-18 months. Understand that these programs are 5-7 days a week and there may only be 1-2 breaks in the whole program. The program was created to "ease the nursing shortage" based on the idea that those who have demonstrated their ability to complete undergraduate or graduate degrees may be able to handle a more intense undergraduate nursing program. Nevertheless, statistically, accelerated BSN graduates have a more difficult time finding their first job versus a traditional BSN program (18-24 months). I am unaware of any statistics regarding performance differences.

I do not think anyone is trying to argue that a BSN is clinically superior to an ADN.

There is a range to all things. There are some ADN programs that are better than some BSN programs. On the average, and over the long term, employers are choosing BSN RNs because 1. they can at little additional cost 2. studies show improved outcomes with higher proportions of BSN nurses 3. certifications and the like.

In many areas, there is probably little difference, at least at first. In some areas, there seems to be an ADN advantage at first. In many areas, there seems to be a BSN advantage after 6-12 months. I personally think, that the individual provider makes makes more of a difference than the difference between programs... at least most of the time:

In my stste, as in many states, there is an overabundance of RNs, particularly new RNs. This matches a huge increase in number and size of RN programs. It is to the point where several schools cannot get hospital placements for their clinical rotations. Thus, many ASN (ADN) programs and for-profits are rotating their students in non-acute care settings for many rotations. For this reason, hospitals are requiring clinical rotation details on new grad resumes in addition to either requiring a BSN for new graduates or strongly preferring a BSN degree.

The extra classes of a BSN are theory and management based not clinical.

Depends on the program... yes there are some leadership and management based classes, but some of the theory classes are extremely important when it is education depth relating to clinical judgement or whether it is an (extremely applicable) ethics class.

However, there are additional clinical rotations such as public health that broaden the scope of knowledge and experience. My community health placement was home based primary care which was actually quite enlightening and definitely involved EMS at points. My program also offered a summer externship course with classroom topics and an additional 400 hours of rotation in an ICU. I was also able to take an Emergency Nursing elective course with rotations in a Level 1 ED.

So, in my state, you see non-profit BSN programs with 900-1400 clinical hours versus most of the ASN and for-profit programs with the state minimum of 750. Then consider whether that clinical time is in a hospital setting etc. It is easy to see why in some markets BSN graduates are more competitive vs other new graduate RNs for their first job.

ADN and BSN programs require the same amount of basic science. And I argue that taking more biology or chemistry does make you a better practitioner. There is a difference between being able to tell your patient their medication is for high blood pressure and actually understanding how their medication works and educating patients on a higher level.

I agree, and more, it can help you get the big picture on your patients, determine what is going on inside, and let you intelligently choose and prioritize interventions.