L.A. County EMS Laws

Really what do plan to restore in ems?. I only ask because there are several medical directors in the LA county area and things have been working just fine for the past 30 plus years. Again if people want to work for peanuts and go else where more power to them, I worked in Tulsa Oklahoma and it sucked money wise, but the calls and protocols were decent, but I don't mind calling the micn. I get to support my family and toys so I am cool with that, this talk about change and standard well I believe it when ems gets rid of system status.

You do realize that a good portion of Med directors are Doc in the box types? They get paid a decent salary to sign their name on what ever the systems want. They will not change the way things are done.

Good Md's challenge the system and stand up for better pt care and hold those under them responsible. That is the system that works! If all you care about is the money, then stay where your at. But, be ready to here how crappy your system has been for the last 30 years. Most prefer progressive systems that advance, for the better care of their Pt's!;)
 
I'm going to go ahead and throw in my own comments for good measure. My experience and personal observations are actually consistent with what daedalus has reported. I started out as an EMT working for a private ambulance service that operated in both LA and OC, so I got to see how both counties operated. I did both BLS IFT's and 911 response with fire medics with this company, and what I saw happen daily was hard for me to fathom. I saw so much negligence that after a while it was no longer a mystery to me why the medics here are on such short leashes. I got BLS'd patients with chest pain, shortness of breath, altered LOC, even trauma criteria patients on a near daily basis by both LA and OC fire medics. Shocking that this occurs without fail every day and little to nothing is done about it.

Now that I'm a paramedic and working in LA this system has me tearing my hair out over how upside-down & backwards it is. FD medics here for the most part do not care about the thing which basically justifies the fire service's existence & budget, which is EMS. What a bizarre mentality, that it's considered such a burden to the service. Like daedalus said earlier, most guys get their medic license just as a vehicle to get on a department; and, once they do they just bide their time on the rescue or squad until they can move to the engine or truck at which point they let their license lapse. Many people here who are involved with EMS/Fire will look at you like you've got three arms growing out of your head if you state an interest in being a medic for any other reason than to become a firefighter. Why on earth would someone want to do such a thing? It's no wonder then, that paramedics in LA/OC operate on what is likely to be the most restricted scope of practice in the entire country. No interpretation of 12-leads, no pediatric intubation, no needle cricothyrotomy, no needle thoracostomy (Orange County), a med box that consists of about 14 medications, and a list of procedures that may be performed prior to base contact that fits on a single piece of paper (OC medics, for example cannot even give repeat doses of albuterol without an order). Speaking of base contact, like daedalus said, when you call base you speak to a MICN who gives you his/her blessing to continue down the remainder of a pre-established protocol that is very basic yet you can't complete it without this permission. MICN's become very nervous when you request some sort of variance, and usually you'll just get the, "Hmmm, you said you're 5 min. out, just hold off on that and bring them here" line. Also, when you make base contact it doesn't consist of a patient's age, chief complaint, and your ETA. No, in the LA/OC little slice of paramedic heaven base contact consists of a long, drawn-out, detailed report of everything you've found in your assessment, what you've done so far, and what you'd like to do. It's basically a way for the MICN to play 20 questions with you to make sure you haven't killed your patient. There is such a lack of trust afforded to paramedics by hospitals due to terrible performance that this is what the system has come to. It's so bad that many ED's don't even utilize the IV line that the paramedic started in the field - they start a new one once the patient is in the ED and they might use the field line to draw labs or sometimes they even just remove it.

It's true that every year it seems that some other procedure or something is set to be pulled from the field. Sometimes, however, there are these shocking instances of trust extended to medics from medical directors that defy explanation and are subsequently ruined by field personnel. For example, Orange County paramedics used to carry streptokinase (a potent thrombolytic synthesized from streptococcus bacteria). So, despite all of the above OC medics were - for a short time - engaged in pre-hospital thrombolytic therapy. A few years ago, however, this was pulled from the field but not for the reasons one would expect. Medics weren't using it on hemorrhagic stroke patients or administering it horribly incorrectly or otherwise misusing it in any way. So, why did it get pulled from the field? Because they weren't using it at all. It was drastically underutilized in the field. Here they were, engaging in some seriously progressive prehospital medicine, and they just sat on it. All this streptokinase just sat in med boxes collecting dust until its expiration date. So, the county was tired of paying for this med when it wasn't being used, and now it doesn't exist in OC protocols any longer. Nice work everyone.

Unfortunately, it isn't just the prehospital aspect of our EMS system that is messed up. The ED's have their own bizarre antics as well. For the most part, if you're prehospital personnel, the only way a nurse will give you the time of day is if you wear yellow pants (that is, you're an FF/PM). Private ambulance paramedics are looked upon by ED nurses and other staff as slightly above the guy who's there to fix the HVAC system, but still more of a nuisance. Since I've only ever worked for private ambulance, I can say that I have never felt like I've been acknowledged as a fellow medical professional in this area. Never. The idea that any hospital staff personnel would listen attentively to what I have to say, trust me to make clinical decisions, and treat my like a professional is a foreign concept to me. Many of my friends have left the LA/OC microcosm to be paramedics in other parts of the state, and from what they all say it's like night and day. It took me a long time to accept the sorry state of EMS in this region, and this realization has often caused me considerable anxiety and doubt about my role in EMS. It has also made me seriously consider leaving the field for a different role in medicine (PA school, specifically). Furthermore, I am absolutely 100% certain that I will not take a job in EMS in LA or OC (even if it is for a FD); pretty confident about leaving the state; and, even desiring to leave the country.

It's such a shame that this is the way it is here, because southern California is such a great place to live and work, and there is an excellent variety of calls. It could be such a progressive system, but I can't really see things ever changing for the better. Anyway, I've already said too much as it is so I'll put a sock in it for now.
 
For those making claims about quality of care...

I would urge those who think that simply giving Paramedics permission to do more in-field procedures and increasing ALS protocols read the article in EMS Responder magazine about the OPALS study, which documents the results of increased ALS procedures done in a pre-hospital setting. The abstract/summary was written by the Medical Director of, surprise surprise...Ventura/Santa Barbara Counties.

I'm done, thanks for playing everyone.

P.S. the fifth and seventh paragraphs are the best ones...
 
Here's a hint. Go talk with trauma Dr's and see what they think of the OPALS study. Don't stand to close, They may spit on you, from all the laughter!
 
I would urge those who think that simply giving Paramedics permission to do more in-field procedures and increasing ALS protocols read the article in EMS Responder magazine about the OPALS study, which documents the results of increased ALS procedures done in a pre-hospital setting. The abstract/summary was written by the Medical Director of, surprise surprise...Ventura/Santa Barbara Counties.

I'm done, thanks for playing everyone.

P.S. the fifth and seventh paragraphs are the best ones...

You would have thought you just dropped a nuke on some of us or something? OPALS? I think you are the one who needs to re-read OPALS. Dropping a name like OPALS and then saying "I am done" suggests to me you do not know a lot about what you are trying to say. You should re read OPALS, investigate the systems it studied and compared, and then ask some intelligent people what they think about it.

Also, the efficacy of advanced prehospital care was not even an angle of what myself and Pilgram where speaking of. Speaking for myself, I was talking about just caring for your patients the way they deserve to be cared for. It just is not done that way in Los Angeles based on what I have seen (which seems to be seconded by many others who care about the field).

Also, there is the little fact that Dr. Salvucci in Santa Barbara and Ventura still lets his paramedics use clinical judgement while LA, the RN gets to do that.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I would urge those who think that simply giving Paramedics permission to do more in-field procedures and increasing ALS protocols read the article in EMS Responder magazine about the OPALS study, which documents the results of increased ALS procedures done in a pre-hospital setting.


If you had read OPALS, you would have discovered that the "BLS" the Canadians referred to had more hours of education than the U.S. Paramedic.
 
by the way...

The addition of a specific regimen of out-of-hospital advanced life support interventions to an existing EMS system that provides basic life support was associated with a decrease in the rate of death of 1.9 percentage points among patients with respiratory distress.

This is good evidence that the prompt and correct treatment of patients with respiratory distress results in better immediate (greater prehospital improvement, lower incidence of ED intubation) and long-term (reduced mortality, better overall cerebral function) outcome. These are important results that identify a group of patients prehospital ALS treatment is likely to help.

Perhaps even more promising is that the majority of the reduction in mortality was seen in patients with congestive heart failure (CHF). Our treatments for CHF have greatly improved since this study was concluded in 2000. With a de-emphasis or elimination of morphine and furosemide (Lasix), higher doses of nitroglycerin and the addition of CPAP (and perhaps even captopril), one would expect that outcomes today would be even better.

As we learn more from excellent studies such as these, it helps us focus our quality improvement efforts. Previous OPALS papers have concluded that ALS care improves outcomes in patients with chest pain, but not cardiac arrest (where CPR and defibrillation are most important) or trauma. EMS systems should keep the treatment of chest pain and respiratory distress patients as high priorities in their QI systems.

- Angelo Salvucci MD (director Santa Barbara and Ventura counties)
 
You seem to be harboring...

the illusion that I care about what you think. I don't. You don't make policies, you don't set standards, and truly nothing personal meant but from your own avatar and signature you're not even a Paramedic in the system that you insist on touting at every opportunity. You don't like the way things are done in Los Angeles county, I get that. I just don't particularly agree with you or care about what you think. If and when you can post some data to go with your feelings please do, I'm sure some interested party will read it.

Not dropping any bombs, just pointing out some actual data as opposed to your opinions. Again, feel free to post data that contradicts what the OPALS research shows, send a copy to your medical director while you're at it.

If you can't make the connection between what you've been yammering about and the results of that study, it's your problem, not mine. If your medical director allows his paramedics, are they his personally or does he share them with the community?, but I digress, if he allows them to continue to do procedures that he knows by his own analysis of the OPALS study don't work, again, that's your problem, not mine. I would be curious to know how a doctor reconciles writing that using advanced ALS procedures in the field don't increase patient survival rates but advocates his own people using them but that's an question I'd post to him, not to you.
Giving paramedics autonomy to continue to perform procedures that don't increase patient survival seems like a pretty hollow victory to me but if getting to interpret that 12 lead makes you feel better about doing your job, have at it.

As for being done, I was referring to being done arguing with people and reading some of the nonsense posted in this thread. Sorry I wasn't clearer about that.

Now I'm done.
 
the illusion that I care about what you think. I don't. You don't make policies, you don't set standards, and truly nothing personal meant but from your own avatar and signature you're not even a Paramedic in the system that you insist on touting at every opportunity. You don't like the way things are done in Los Angeles county, I get that. I just don't particularly agree with you or care about what you think. If and when you can post some data to go with your feelings please do, I'm sure some interested party will read it.

Not dropping any bombs, just pointing out some actual data as opposed to your opinions. Again, feel free to post data that contradicts what the OPALS research shows, send a copy to your medical director while you're at it.

If you can't make the connection between what you've been yammering about and the results of that study, it's your problem, not mine. If your medical director allows his paramedics, are they his personally or does he share them with the community?, but I digress, if he allows them to continue to do procedures that he knows by his own analysis of the OPALS study don't work, again, that's your problem, not mine. I would be curious to know how a doctor reconciles writing that using advanced ALS procedures in the field don't increase patient survival rates but advocates his own people using them but that's an question I'd post to him, not to you.
Giving paramedics autonomy to continue to perform procedures that don't increase patient survival seems like a pretty hollow victory to me but if getting to interpret that 12 lead makes you feel better about doing your job, have at it.

As for being done, I was referring to being done arguing with people and reading some of the nonsense posted in this thread. Sorry I wasn't clearer about that.

Now I'm done.


I can't believe I am reading such a comment in the year 2009.

You really should pull up the OPALS for both cardiac and trauma. Read the full articles.

You also need to educate yourself for the Canadian education requirements.
 
I just don't particularly agree with you or care about what you think.
I am allowed to post my opinions here just the same as you are, correct? Civil debate is better than dragging someone through the mud.

You are right, I am not a paramedic. I am an EMT. I also do not make policy. I am however a member of our national advocacy organization, and frequently write letters to politicians who probably ignore them, all to improve patient care in our state. I also plan on making EMS policy one day.

It seems to me you are a standby EMT for film and other events. Have you worked with the firefighters on a 911 BLS car? Have you transported patients from the emergency department after they have been brought into the ER by the fire departments? How can you stand to defend them?

And, it is not a hollow victory for me and my paramedic partners to be greeted by emergency room staff as professionals, and to be recognized as independent thinkers and have our opinions listened to and respected.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I can't believe I am reading such a comment in the year 2009.

You really should pull up the OPALS for both cardiac and trauma. Read the full articles.

You also need to educate yourself for the Canadian education requirements.

Just for clarification, the O in OPALS stands for Ontario which is in Canada.
 
Now we're learning geography...

thanks for the geographical information. The summary I referred to dealt with ALS interventions, not with BLS interventions. The fact that Canada has different BLS educational standards is so far from the point of what I referred to as to be a totally different topic.

Other than having only one road, Canada is very nice place to be from...even Ontario.

P.S. The people who live and work in Ontario, California might take exception to your statement that Ontario is in Canada...

John E
 
thanks for the geographical information. The summary I referred to dealt with ALS interventions, not with BLS interventions. The fact that Canada has different BLS educational standards is so far from the point of what I referred to as to be a totally different topic.

Other than having only one road, Canada is very nice place to be from...even Ontario.

P.S. The people who live and work in Ontario, California might take exception to your statement that Ontario is in Canada...

John E

Not far from the point at all. You brought up OPALS. The O in OPALS stands for Ontario (In canada). OPALS compared BLS and ALS. In Canada, BLS is close to what we call ALS in the United States.

You are now being belligerent. Are you even aware of the qualifications of the people you are arguing with? Compared to your own?
 
thanks for the geographical information. The summary I referred to dealt with ALS interventions, not with BLS interventions. The fact that Canada has different BLS educational standards is so far from the point of what I referred to as to be a totally different topic.
When the definitions of "BLS education," "ALS education," "BLS treatment," and "ALS treatment" varies the amount that they do between the US definition and the Ontario, Canada definition, you can't apply studies about Canada BLS treatments to American BLS treatments. It's like saying that a NP can treat condition X as well as a physician. Well, the NP is a nurse, therefore an RN can provide the same level of care.


P.S. The people who live and work in Ontario, California might take exception to your statement that Ontario is in Canada...


1. The "Ontario" in "Ontario Prehospital Advance Life Support" is not Ontario, CA.

2. Canada can have Ontario as far as I'm concerned. They can take Pomona too as long as the region bordered by 1st St, 3rd St, Town, and Gibbs stays in California.
 
the illusion that I care about what you think. I don't. You don't make policies, you don't set standards, and truly nothing personal meant but from your own avatar and signature you're not even a Paramedic in the system that you insist on touting at every opportunity. You don't like the way things are done in Los Angeles county, I get that. I just don't particularly agree with you or care about what you think. If and when you can post some data to go with your feelings please do, I'm sure some interested party will read it..
To be fair, you aren't a paramedic either in the system you're touting.
 
thanks for the geographical information. The summary I referred to dealt with ALS interventions, not with BLS interventions. The fact that Canada has different BLS educational standards is so far from the point of what I referred to as to be a totally different topic.

Other than having only one road, Canada is very nice place to be from...even Ontario.

P.S. The people who live and work in Ontario, California might take exception to your statement that Ontario is in Canada...

John E

I can't believe you think OPALS is about Ontario, California.
 
And I can't believe...

that you believe that I actually believe that I was referring to Ontario, California either but you've shown to unable to understand other things that other people have written in the past so who knows what you think.

Now ask me if I care what you believe?

Just don't it via private messages, I've got enough of those from you already.

John E
 
To be fair, I can't believe that you believe that Canadian "BLS" is comparable to American "BLS." So I guess we're even. Now go sit in the... comfy chair...
 
Not really...

To be fair, you aren't a paramedic either in the system you're touting.

Well to be fair, I haven't actually touted any system, nor have I ever claimed to be a Paramedic, I simply asked for the person who was denigrating the Los Angeles County EMS system to provide some actual data other than their personal feelings. Personally, I haven't heard of, read of, been told of, or seen an EMS system that couldn't stand improvement but that's my OPINION.

I'm well aware that L.A. has it's problems, I live and work here full time, have done so for the last 30 years now. (Not working in EMS all that time).

It's simple, if I state that the school you're attending is crap and anyone who goes there is an idiot I should either be able to offer up some evidence or admit that I'm only offering my personal opinion. To state that your school is crap and attempt to offer as proof that I didn't like it when I attended it isn't proof of anything other than that I had a bad experience. There are a large number of people on this forum who think that offering up their opinion means that it should be accepted as fact and I call bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: on that.

In the interest of full disclosure, I once lived in Pomona, have driven by your school but have never set foot in it or attended classes therein so my opinion that it's crap was only meant as an illustration...;^) Is it crap? Never mind...

And for what it's worth, my comments about daedalus not being a Paramedic yet wasn't an attempt to put him/or her down, it really wasn't. I was simply making the observation that he/she isn't working as a Paramedic in the Ventura County EMS service yet and until that happens, no one really knows what he/she will think of things. I would also add that anyone attending Paramedic school should be enthusiastic, I'd be worried if they weren't. Time has a way of tempering that enthusiasm into reality.

John E
 
Thought I was finished...

turns out I wasn't.

As someone else wrote, just for clarification, I don't believe, think, or know that what we call BLS is the same as what our brothers and sisters in Kanuckistan call BLS. I also never wrote, stated, claimed, exclaimed, pontificated, or espoused that belief. As I've written before, if you can find a post in which I did so, please post it.

My comments about the study which did not take place in or around Pomona or even Ontario, California were very specific, I asked for people interested to read the summary of the OPALS that was written by the Medical Director of Ventura/Santa Barbara Counties and that was published in EMS Responder magazine, specifically the fifth and seventh paragraphs of the writers conclusions. If one were to do that, one would find that the writer is not comparing Canadian and U.S. BLS practices nor is it comparing Canadian and U.S. BLS practices vs ALS practices. I'm not gonna spoil the fun of it for those who want to go and read the actual words as written but to paraphrase, the author is commenting on the effects of ALS interventions and the survival rates of patients in the study. Again, I don't want to spoil anything but I was hoping that some of superbly educated among us, and even those with a "mere" Associates Degree would be able to understand the comments made by the Doctor who wrote the summary.

Not the gospels, but an interesting conclusion written by someone who would appear to know what he's talking about.

I'll leave it to the readers to see if the conclusions reached have any bearing on the idea that having Paramedics that can do more and more procedures in the field, with or without an MD or an RN's supervision is a good idea or not. If I'm completely and totally wrong about what I read, I would love to be shown where and how, with the exception of being told again and incorrectly that I don't know the difference between Canadian BLS and U.S BLS since that was NEVER the point in the first place. And since I do in fact know the difference. I've actually been to Canada, how many of you can say that...?;^)

John E


P.S. Poutine, yet another reason why Canada is an interesting place to be from...
 
Back
Top