Knifes

[JJR512]

As for the country of manufacture thing, some people do care, and try to buy USA made as much as they can.

Oh, I know lots of people care. Lots of people caring doesn't make it any more relevant. Product purchasing decisions should be based on factors such as function, purpose, quality, durability, reliability, price, and value. If you can find multiple products that meet or exceed your expectations and demands with respect to all these factors, then sure, go ahead and start narrowing down your field of choices based on less important factors, such as country of origin. But to mention country of origin first, as if that factor, in and of itself, is enough to automatically discount a product is just ludicrous, in my opinion.

 

[Aidey]

For some people country of manufacture is enough of a reason to automatically discount an item.

 

[JJR512]

Yes, and some people choose ice cream based on its color rather than its flavor.

My opinion on the importance of country of origin as a primary factor has already been expressed. Anything more would just be repetition.

 

[reaper]

Countries do matter.

The steel used in Chinese production is inferior. This has been proven in hundreds of tests. Never look at the product, but the ingredients!

 

[JJR512]

There are many different kinds of steel, many different compositions. There is no one kind of steel that is found exclusively in products made in China. Whatever kind of steel is used in the Gerber Hinderer is the kind that Gerber said should be used. It doesn't matter where it's made, Gerber specifies what it's supposed to be made out of. If you don't like the kind of steel that Gerber specifies, that's Gerber's fault, so you can blame that on either America or Finland.

Oh, by the way...The Gerber Hinderer isn't even made in China in the first place.

I do agree with your "look at the ingredients" statement, though. That's part of assessing the quality of a product, which was something I already indicated should be one of the primary considerations when choosing which product to buy. You can't look at where it's made and assume you know exactly what kind of steel it is, though.

 

[Fox800]

Oh, by the way...The Gerber Hinderer isn't even made in China in the first place.

Mine is. Try again.

 

[Fox800]

I'm with Vene on this one. In 7+ years I've never carried nor needed a knife. Trauma shears have worked every time I've needed something cut.


As for the country of manufacture thing, some people do care, and try to buy USA made as much as they can.

A knife is a handy tool to have on your person. Just because you "haven't needed" one doesn't mean that they aren't useful. The defensive applications are obvious, too. I'm not one advocating paramedics/EMTs as knife fighters but every little bit helps in a professional culture that would see us disarmed and hoping PD is there every time a situation turns violent.

 

[Fox800]

Oh, I know lots of people care. Lots of people caring doesn't make it any more relevant. Product purchasing decisions should be based on factors such as function, purpose, quality, durability, reliability, price, and value. If you can find multiple products that meet or exceed your expectations and demands with respect to all these factors, then sure, go ahead and start narrowing down your field of choices based on less important factors, such as country of origin. But to mention country of origin first, as if that factor, in and of itself, is enough to automatically discount a product is just ludicrous, in my opinion.

I own one. I no longer carry it at work due to its size and the fact that I can't open it one-handed very easily. All of our regulators have O2 wrenches attached and I carry a window punch in my pocket so I have no need for the doodads that the Hinderer (fitting name) offers.

 

[citizensoldierny]

There are many different kinds of steel, many different compositions. There is no one kind of steel that is found exclusively in products made in China. Whatever kind of steel is used in the Gerber Hinderer is the kind that Gerber said should be used. It doesn't matter where it's made, Gerber specifies what it's supposed to be made out of. If you don't like the kind of steel that Gerber specifies, that's Gerber's fault, so you can blame that on either America or Finland.

Oh, by the way...The Gerber Hinderer isn't even made in China in the first place.

I do agree with your "look at the ingredients" statement, though. That's part of assessing the quality of a product, which was something I already indicated should be one of the primary considerations when choosing which product to buy. You can't look at where it's made and assume you know exactly what kind of steel it is, though.

Gerber for the most part uses 440A, which isn't a supersteel by any stretch. Same money spent will get you a Benchmade Mini Grip in 154 CM Or a Spyderco Native cpm-s30v . Both knives I mentioned are great blades and will give you a lifetime of service. They are both also made in the USA and keep are country in the manufacturing biz .

 

[RNL]

A knife is a handy tool to have on your person. Just because you "haven't needed" one doesn't mean that they aren't useful. The defensive applications are obvious, too. I'm not one advocating paramedics/EMTs as knife fighters but every little bit helps in a professional culture that would see us disarmed and hoping PD is there every time a situation turns violent.

fighting with a knife with patient? Or patient's family? C'mon...

 

[JJR512]

Mine is. Try again.

Oh, I should try again? OK, how about this:

The complete back of the package of the Gerber Hinderer that I bought about two months ago from thefirestore.com.

A cropped zoom of the upper half of the package, to make the "MADE IN TAIWAN" more visible. It's in white text centered along the bottom edge.

I've proved that my Gerber Hinderer is not made in China; can you prove that yours is?

If anyone is about to tell me that "Made in Taiwan" is just as bad as "Made in China", think very carefully before you start typing. Think about how you're reading this message. You're reading it on a computer, right? What's one of the primary components of the guts of a computer? The motherboard. Where are all PC motherboards made? Taiwan. Have you ever seen a motherboard? It's an extremely complex piece of circuitry. You don't need to be a genius to make one if you can follow instructions, but, well, the same is certainly true for a simple knife now isn't it?

Remember that the particular product in question, the Gerber Hinderer, isn't a Taiwanese product, and if it were actually made in China, it wouldn't be a Chinese product, either. It's an American product. It's manufactured to American-specified quality standards to meet an American design (the fact that Gerber itself is owned by a Finnish company notwithstanding). In terms of final product quality, what matters most is how good the design is, and how good the quality controls are in the production plant.

Now you're just being crotchety. I own one. I no longer carry it at work due to its size and the fact that I can't open it one-handed very easily. All of our regulators have O2 wrenches attached and I carry a window punch in my pocket so I have no need for the doodads that the Hinderer (fitting name) offers.

As I said previously, a product's function should be a primary consideration when deciding to buy it or not. In other words, does it suit your needs? Will you be able to use it for whatever you want to do? Unfortunately, you didn't discover the unsuitability of this particular product until after you'd bought it. That happens sometimes. The fact that it's not made in America has nothing to do with the fact that this product doesn't meet your needs or expectations. Also, it's named after a person, and I can't abide making fun of someone's name.

Tell you what...You say you still have it but no longer use it. If you're interested in getting rid of it, shoot me a PM and we'll see what we can work out; I might be interested in buying a second one. And if yours is in decent enough condition, I'll consider buying it from you if you'd like to sell it even if you can prove it is made in China.

Gerber for the most part uses 440A, which isn't a supersteel by any stretch. Same money spent will get you a Benchmade Mini Grip in 154 CM Or a Spyderco Native cpm-s30v . Both knives I mentioned are great blades and will give you a lifetime of service. They are both also made in the USA and keep are country in the manufacturing biz .

And what does the kind of steel that's in this knife have to do with where it's made? NOTHING! If it's made of 440A steel, that's because Gerber specified that it should be made out of that. It would be made out of that whether it was made in China, Taiwan, Japan, Germany, Timbuktu, or the United States of America. If you don't like 440A steel, if you feel it's not going to be durable enough for you, then that is a perfectly valid reason to take this knife out of your field of choices. And as this has absolutely nothing to do with where it happens to be made, then I submit again that where it's made has nothing to do with any practical reason to decide whether or not to buy it.

 

[Veneficus]

A knife is a handy tool to have on your person. Just because you "haven't needed" one doesn't mean that they aren't useful. The defensive applications are obvious, too. I'm not one advocating paramedics/EMTs as knife fighters but every little bit helps in a professional culture that would see us disarmed and hoping PD is there every time a situation turns violent.

ummm.

Could I suggest that if you haven't learned and practice how to fight with a weapon, it is just as dangerous to you as it is somebody else.

I have learned a thing or two about it and would offer the reminder that your arm naturally bends towards you.

As an EMS responder, your role is not to fight with anyone, it is to escape. A weapon of anykind makes a confrontation more likely. There is also the implication of how you are going to justify the use of deadly force afterword. Lawyers are actually rather expensive, and I certainly wouldn't want to find myself facing legal issues without one or just as bad, a public defender.

If you think the situation is likely hostile I strongly hope you will not put yourself in it.

If the situation turns hostile, which is more likely, you may have only a few seconds to react, if anytime at all, and those few seconds are better spent escaping.

I hope you will also make use of this:

http://dt4ems.com/

 

[citizensoldierny]

JJR,
You make your choices and I'll make mine. What I did address though is Gerber and their poor choice of steel. And that I thought there were better buys out there. Gerber was once a great name and loved by Knife lovers, they chose to go down the wrong path and now they're paying the price. I have over 50 knifes and the only Gerbers in my collection are the multi-tools Uncle Sam gave me and a fixed blade I recieved as part of a trade. Multi-tools which by the way I never used as I like my leatherman better.
Pic of most of my collection: Not Asia free by any means but definitely light on Gerber.

 

[citizensoldierny]

Veneficus,
I have to disagree with you on the knife being just as dangerous to you as it is your opponent. I do agree that introducing a knife into a fight, especially in a gun culture like parts of our country are, might definitely lead to your demise. Could definitely lead to your demise if you want to make a habit of knife fighting too. After taking some martial arts , Army combatives, and a Correction academy I would not willingly try to engage anyone with a knife. Even someone untrained has an advantage while they have steel in their hand. Every day people are seriously killed and injured by untrained amateurs with steel in their hands. I have also been stabbed twice, not a fun experience but scarily enough the second time I did not see the spike in the person's hand and didn't realize I was stabbed until the kid who did it took off running and left a big peice of homemade metal spike wrapped with duct tape sticking out of my deltoid. I could have kept fighting as it was far from life threatening except for the fact I was in an acute state of WTF, while my brain was trying to figure out why there was a new addition to my deltoid. Didn't hurt all that bad till one of my friends( fellow hoodlums) pulled it out.

 

[Fox800]

My head is hurting on a whole new level. Yes, lets make generalizations about knife manufacturing because another company manufactures computer components. No leap of faith there or anything.

Thanks for posting the picture of the packaging. As I threw mine away a long time ago, and seeing as how my knife isn't marked with a county of origin (big surprise), I can't provide evidence of my claim. However, I'm pretty sure I saw what I saw.

If it makes you feel good calling a knife made outside the US an "American" product, then I'm happy for you. Although I'd say that 99.9% of us would respectfully disagree and steer you towards a globe. Or the US Commerce Department.

 

[Fox800]

fighting with a knife with patient? Or patient's family? C'mon...

ummm.

Could I suggest that if you haven't learned and practice how to fight with a weapon, it is just as dangerous to you as it is somebody else.

I have learned a thing or two about it and would offer the reminder that your arm naturally bends towards you.

As an EMS responder, your role is not to fight with anyone, it is to escape. A weapon of anykind makes a confrontation more likely. There is also the implication of how you are going to justify the use of deadly force afterword. Lawyers are actually rather expensive, and I certainly wouldn't want to find myself facing legal issues without one or just as bad, a public defender.

If you think the situation is likely hostile I strongly hope you will not put yourself in it.

If the situation turns hostile, which is more likely, you may have only a few seconds to react, if anytime at all, and those few seconds are better spent escaping.

I hope you will also make use of this:

http://dt4ems.com/

If you're referring to the idea of "whipping out a knife when a patient gets out of line" or pulling it during a fight, that's not what most of us who carry knives have in mind. It's a tool that would be a last-resort weapon in a situation where my life is in imminent danger (i.e. about to be killed or maimed for life, no LEOs around, no real help). If I can run away, of course I'm going to run away. Do you really think I'm going to use a knife on someone if I can get out of there? Get real. I know the second that knife comes out I'm ready to lose my job (so be it) and go to court, because I can justify defending myself.

Do you have any statistics to back up your claim that the presence of a weapon makes assaults on EMS personnel more likely? Or are you referring to settings of domestic violence or violence against law enforcement officers? Perhaps you're referring to the presence of weapons in the house, owned by the residents. A knife clipped to my pocket, with a black clip against dark blue pants next to a big black belt with black pouches doesn't attract much attention. And they'd never see the OC canister that rides in a pocket or inconspicuous-looking belt pouch.

If it comes down to me having no avenue of escape and facing the prospect of being seriously maimed or killed, I will defend myself to the best of my abilities. Is such a scenario far-fetched? Yes. But I have this knife and I carry it every day, on-duty or off. I also carry a small container of OC spray on-duty, allowed by policy. If you can't see the wisdom or utility of having these items (even if only at work), then I probably can't change your mind. EMS is a dangerous profession (duh) and I will carry any defensive item that I can, as long as I'm following the rules.

I would love to take a DT4EMS course, but I have neither the funds or the time off from work to travel and take one.

 

[hocomedic]

I think that you all are getting away from the point of this whole thread. The point is to give suggestions of knives to our newer member in EMS. I personal think that if a knife works for you then it doesn't matter whats it made out of or where its made. IF IT WORKS THEN IT WORKS. I personally have a gerber fire rescue, is it a good knife yes, could it be better yes, every knife can be better. That's why i carry two, GERBER FIRE RESCUE AND A ZERO TOLERANCE 350 with a s30v steel blade. I highly recommend this knife to anyone looking for a great quality knife and for all you people who worry about where its made, it's made in the USA

My recommendation for the person who started this thread is to go to a local gun show or local knife shop and actually hold lots of knives and see what you like and what suits your needs. Then you could buy it there or research around on the internet.

O and ERTECH i want to welcome you to the world of EMS and be careful out there and WATCH OUT FOR DOGS.

 

[Chimpie]

The thread has been reopened.

I am in the market for a new knife.I am new to a 911 service and am in need of some recommendations.I don't want to spend to much money,for the the fear of loosing it.

So who else has knife recommendations?

 

[Veneficus]

So who else has knife recommendations?

Go large or go home right?

 

[JJR512]

JJR,
You make your choices and I'll make mine. What I did address though is Gerber and their poor choice of steel. And that I thought there were better buys out there. Gerber was once a great name and loved by Knife lovers, they chose to go down the wrong path and now they're paying the price.

I have no problem with anything you said. I have no argument with you. It seems to me that you chose the knives you chose for valid reasons, such as your impression of the durability, or they did something specific that you wanted, etc. That's all fine. If you chose to not buy Gerber because you don't like the kind of steel they use, that's fine. I have no problem with that. That's a perfectly legitimate concern. What I'm concerned about in this discussion is people choosing to buy something (or not) based solely on where the product was made. It sounds like you're perfectly willing to buy an Asian-made product as long as it has the quality and features you want. So as I said, I have no argument with you.

My head is hurting on a whole new level. Yes, lets make generalizations about knife manufacturing because another company manufactures computer components. No leap of faith there or anything.

Oh, you don't want to make generalizations now? What about in Post #12, "It's...made in China," what about that big generalization? I think we both know you weren't mentioning that just as an interesting little side-note, some little factoid presented for entertainment purposes. We both know you meant that as a warning, implying that because something is made in China, it's crap. That seems like a pretty big generalization to me. The fact of the matter is that both China and Taiwan are capable of manufacturing products to any standard of quality. Yes, a lot of junk comes out of China. This doesn't mean that everything produced in every Asian country is junk.

Thanks for posting the picture of the packaging. As I threw mine away a long time ago, and seeing as how my knife isn't marked with a county of origin (big surprise), I can't provide evidence of my claim. However, I'm pretty sure I saw what I saw.

And for all I know, you very well did see "Made in China". It's quite possible that yours was made in China, and sometime between then and now, they've moved their production facility. Or perhaps they have multiple facilities operating in both countries. But...why did you buy it in the first place if you knew (or thought) it was made in China? In fact, the only specific negative comments you've made about the Gerber Hinderer is that it was too big for your hands, and didn't meet your needs as a product. You haven't actually made any complaints about its quality at all.

If it makes you feel good calling a knife made outside the US an "American" product, then I'm happy for you. Although I'd say that 99.9% of us would respectfully disagree and steer you towards a globe. Or the US Commerce Department.

To my knowledge, the Gerber Hinderer was designed by an American. It was designed for an American company (notwithstanding the fact that Gerber itself is owned by a Finnish company). Some Taiwanese people may earn a little bit of money making it for an American company, but the profits from selling it go to America and Finland. The Gerber Hinderer is an American product in exactly the same way that Honda Accords made in Marysville, Ohio, USA are Japanese products.

I really hope that's the last time we need to discuss country of origin and its irrelevance as a primary factor in making a product selection decision.

Moving on...

Veneficus, I haven't always thought the same way you do or believed the same thing you believe, so it may come as a surprise to you that in this thread, I'm going to agree with you. Especially in Post #32. Now I'm not sure if the OP was looking for a defensive weapon, a utility tool, or what. One of the things I'd point out about my particular favorite (the only knife I've talked about in this discussion at all) is that it's more of a tool than a defensive weapon. Its blade is almost entirely serrated, which is meant more for cutting through rope than actually hurting someone. Which isn't to say that it wouldn't hurt; of course it can. But the tip of the blade is blunt, and the half-inch or so of straight edge between the tip and the serrated portion is also blunt. I don't mean that it's dull, as if it were meant to be sharp but they just didn't sharpen it very well, I mean it's blunt, as in it was never sharpened and isn't meant to be sharp at all. Now you may have never needed to cut a rope, or break a window, or cut a seatbelt. Correct me if I'm wrong, Veneficus, but my recollection is you're an EMS-only person, not a Firefighter/EMS person. This knife is meant for firefighters. Firefighters do occasionally need to do the things this knife is meant to do, as are some similar products from other brands. FF/EMS personnel have a different set of needs than EMS-only personnel.

My pants (5.11 Tactical EMS pants) have cargo pockets with an inner divider, and I keep mine clipped to that inner divider, and the cargo pocket is closed over it. Nobody can tell it's there with the flap closed, and even if I happen to open it for a moment, it's still pretty difficult to see. I keep it concealed so that a potentially aggressive person doesn't become aware of it and decide to use it as a weapon against me. Because of this, it would take me a few seconds to get it out and get it ready, if I decided I wanted to use it to defend myself. As Veneficus points out, those few seconds could probably be better spent trying to get myself out of that situation.

Fox800, it is because of how I carry it concealed that I'm interested in buying a second one, if you'd like to get rid of yours. When I start getting into firefighting and rescue, and start using turnout gear, I'm going to want one that's more conveniently accessible in those situations. With turnout gear on, it'd be virtually impossible to get something out of an inner pocket of my regular pants. I'd like to have one that gets clipped somewhere externally on turnout gear, possibly to a radio strap. I don't want to waste time moving one from its concealed location to a more convenient external location each time I have to put on the turnout gear, so that's why I'd like a second one. Again, if you're interested in selling, send me a PM.