Jury reaches split verdict in Burks trial: Watch the dash cam video

JPINFV said:
If the dude had enough strength to wobble over and break his cane over the officer's head then I doubt that it's an emergency. You are also assuming that no one ever lies to a police officer.
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Oh, it's totally unforgivable. I am talking about everything *before* that part. The cane over the head was in some opinions due justice to the (in some opinions) over zealous cop. In any case, I am just focusing in on the first 2 minutes or so.
 
bstone said:
Oh, it's totally unforgivable. I am talking about everything *before* that part. The cane over the head was in some opinions due justice to the (in some opinions) over zealous cop. In any case, I am just focusing in on the first 2 minutes or so.
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So the LEOs that died in the line of duty while making a traffic stop probably deserved it if your summation of traffic stops and cops are correct. Those LEOs might have been trying to give out a $100 ticket instead of $50. That definitely would be reason to kill a cop if a $50 ticket warrants getting a cane strike on the head which also can be a fatal blow.

This LEO probably should have been more aggressive the moment she got out of the van to get control of the scene before it escalated to the point it did. It should not have gone on for 2 minutes. She wrote the circumstances when she did not pull over and again when she exited the van quickly.
 
VentMedic said:
So the LEOs that died in the line of duty while making a traffic stop probably deserved it if your summation of traffic stops and cops are correct. Those LEOs might have been trying to give out a $100 ticket instead of $50. That definitely would be reason to kill a cop if a $50 ticket warrants getting a cane strike on the head which also can be a fatal blow.
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:huh:Huh?:huh:

Are you saying I think it's ok to kill cops? What? I don't understand what you wrote? I am only focusing on the first 2 minutes in which the cop denied a person of then-unknown medical status access into an emergency room in favor of a super minor traffic citation.

Anything else after that I think it unforgivable and just plain nuts.
 
bstone said:
Oh, it's totally unforgivable. I am talking about everything *before* that part. The cane over the head was in some opinions due justice to the (in some opinions) over zealous cop. In any case, I am just focusing in on the first 2 minutes or so.
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BTW, you didn't mention that the LEO was also an EMT.

http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2008/01/24/news/doc479896b1c9625710233965.txt

Troxel, who, like all Petoskey Department of Public Safety officers, is a certified emergency medical technician, testified that he looked into the van at Reggie Burks and said he did not appear to be in a life threatening emergency as he was conscious and did not have any immediately apparent injuries.

“He did not appear to be in distress, in pain or have any cuts,” Troxel said.
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bstone said:
Hmm, didn't see that part of the article. However any EMT who glances at a patient through a car while at the same time trying to secure a car in a traffic stop, control a pleading woman and trying to maintain your cool....well...I think we can all agree that the assessment is clearly sub-par and not to be trusted at all.
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Scene safety first. I do not see where he could have safely turned his back on her in her emotional state to do any more then glance at the "patient".

I would truly hope that you would exercise caution as an EMT when you are approaching hysterical people if not for youirself but for your partner's or the LEO's safety.
 
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bstone said:
Yes, I am looking at this from a medical point of view. Which, once the scene was safe (the woman had informed the LEO that her passenger was in immediate need of emergency services mere feet away), the officer knew he was in no immediate need, he holstered his gun and thus should have attended to the medical emergency at hand.
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Don't know if I would have considered that a safe scene. It would make me a little nervous if someone just jumped out of their car during a traffic stop.

I bet it would have been a different story.....no, not if she was white (as some are insisting this was a race issue)...but if the woman had simply waited in her car, then told the officer in as calm a manner as she could that her husband needed immediate medical attention.

-Matt
 
VentMedic said:
Scene safety first.
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Exactly. So there is absolutely no way he could have possibly done an assessment to the point of ruling out anything major.
 
SC Bird said:
Don't know if I would have considered that a safe scene. It would make me a little nervous if someone just jumped out of their car during a traffic stop.

I bet it would have been a different story.....no, not if she was white (as some are insisting this was a race issue)...but if the woman had simply waited in her car, then told the officer in as calm a manner as she could that her husband needed immediate medical attention.

-Matt
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Is that what you would have done? Human nature would have made anyone jump out to a person in uniform and beg for help. Those who can remain calm when a loved one is seriously ill or injured are rare indeed. They're called EMTs.
 
bstone said:
Exactly. So there is absolutely no way he could have possibly done an assessment to the point of ruling out anything major.
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I'm not a LEO, but I am pretty sure that a confrontational/excited party exiting a vehicle during a traffic stop after refusing to yield supercedes the passenger at the time when we are talking about safety. You never know what's coming out of the car....unfortunately there are many fallen officers who are evidence of that.

-Matt
 
bstone said:
Is that what you would have done? Human nature would have made anyone jump out to a person in uniform and beg for help. Those who can remain calm when a loved one is seriously ill or injured are rare indeed. They're called EMTs.
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Having known many friends in law enforcement, they've told me to NEVER come out of your car during a traffic stop unless instructed to. I wouldn't even make quick movements when reaching for my insurance that is in my glove box.

So I guess, yeah....I might have shouted at him to hurry his butt up so I could explain that the passenger needed medical attention...but I would not have come out of my car....

-Matt
 
What were the guy's 3 other convictions since his sentencing guidelines were initially for the habitual offender 4th offense?

When an LEO makes a traffic stop of any type, they never know who is in that car. A screaming woman can be used as a distraction. Stories can become very elaborate to mask other situations. Rushing in with blinders on only to the medical situation is very dangerous.

This officer also had to make a discision within two areas of his training. Although, with either LEO or EMT training, scene safety is still at the top.
 
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But once he knew that this woman was not throwing punches, had no weapons and was pleading for medical assistance for passenger, the officer then put away his pistol. At that point he assumed the scene was safe and proceeded with the credentials check. However, when faced with a medical emergency the credentials check should be suspended in favor of summoning or transporting to emergency help, correct?
 
I have too much respect for LEOs to continue this "bash the cop" thread after this post. Police work is a difficult job especially if they also must look out for over zealous EMTs wanting to rush into scenes that they may not have all the information about. Maybe he could have worded things differently but the lady behaved in a disregarding manner starting from the street that put the LEO into a high alert approach.

I seriously doubt if this couple would have been happy inside the hospital either if they were told to wait in the waiting room since the man had only an abrasion to be looked at. Can you imagine the wrath or beating the triage RN might have gotten? With their tempers and emotions, what type of danger could others have been placed in? There are reasons why some EDs police officers stationed there and not just the regular security guards.

bstone, good for you that you are a patient advocate. However, you must also understand that there are other professionals like LEOs that have special training to recognize signs of danger that you are not. They are also there to protect and preserve life. I believe neither the lay person nor an EMT is truly qualified to analyze that video to determine what policies and procedures were violated, if any, by that officer. Many people can witness the same scene (or video) and all offer variations of what they perceived to have happened. That is something you should also remember when trying to piece together facts at an MVC as an EMT.
 
What tells the biggest story to me, is when the woman tells the officer, just get someone from the ER to see to my husband and I will stay here with you. The cop's response is not to contact the hospital to arrange for help for the possibly injured pt, but to insist on seeing her registration and driver's license. The woman at that point has been compliant and in my opinion, more in control of herself and her behaviors than the officer. She did not push past the officer, but merely attempted to impress upon the officer the importance of getting help for her husband. The officer has the ability to contact the hospital and does so later in the incident, so it would have been simple to get the man taken care of.

I know that Police work is dangerous and I have many friends who serve as LEOs. But, that doesn't mean that every cop in every situation is right no matter what he does to gain what he feels is necessary control. This was a traffic citation, turn signal and exhaust, not speeding, not weaving in and out of traffic, not reckless driving, but what we used to refer to as chippy violations.
 
Just because the vehicle makes it to the ER and claims to have a medical emergency, doesn't mean the driver and passenger get to run into the hospital away from the officer. How many times have drivers tried to flee on foot into a building? Should the officer let them go just because they're at a hospital?

Given the fact the "sick" passenger was able to get out and assault the officer with a deadly weapon, how much of an emergency was it? Was it serious enough to run from the cops and endanger several lives yet not be serious enough that he was not in obvious distress?

Could the situation have been handled differently? Absolutely. Starting with the driver of the vehicle. All she had to do was pull over when the officer initiated the traffic stop and explain the situation. The whole thing could have been prevented at that point. Why should she not be held responsible and accountable for the results of this initial bad decision? Why do people insist on blaming the officer?

Also, something to keep in mind in most states. Resisting arrest is illegal, regardless of whether or not the arrest is legal in and of itself.
 
ffemt8978 said:
Just because the vehicle makes it to the ER and claims to have a medical emergency, doesn't mean the driver and passenger get to run into the hospital away from the officer. How many times have drivers tried to flee on foot into a building? Should the officer let them go just because they're at a hospital?

Given the fact the "sick" passenger was able to get out and assault the officer with a deadly weapon, how much of an emergency was it? Was it serious enough to run from the cops and endanger several lives yet not be serious enough that he was not in obvious distress?

Could the situation have been handled differently? Absolutely. Starting with the driver of the vehicle. All she had to do was pull over when the officer initiated the traffic stop and explain the situation. The whole thing could have been prevented at that point. Why should she not be held responsible and accountable for the results of this initial bad decision? Why do people insist on blaming the officer?

Also, something to keep in mind in most states. Resisting arrest is illegal, regardless of whether or not the arrest is legal in and of itself.
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amen........
 
ffemt8978 said:
Just because the vehicle makes it to the ER and claims to have a medical emergency, doesn't mean the driver and passenger get to run into the hospital away from the officer. How many times have drivers tried to flee on foot into a building? Should the officer let them go just because they're at a hospital?

Given the fact the "sick" passenger was able to get out and assault the officer with a deadly weapon, how much of an emergency was it? Was it serious enough to run from the cops and endanger several lives yet not be serious enough that he was not in obvious distress?

Could the situation have been handled differently? Absolutely. Starting with the driver of the vehicle. All she had to do was pull over when the officer initiated the traffic stop and explain the situation. The whole thing could have been prevented at that point. Why should she not be held responsible and accountable for the results of this initial bad decision? Why do people insist on blaming the officer?

Also, something to keep in mind in most states. Resisting arrest is illegal, regardless of whether or not the arrest is legal in and of itself.
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No one is saying that the person clearly wasn't as injured as made out to be. That is plainly obvious. It's first 2 minutes in which the officer was begged over and over to let a human being of then-unknown medical status into the ER but utterly refused. This is the concerning part.

The part where the injured man gets out and attacks the LEO shows that he wasn't all that injured, but take that out of the equation for a minute and just concentrate on the LEOs actions for the first 2 minutes. Do you think they were appropriate? I believe absolutely not.
 
bstone said:
No one is saying that the person clearly wasn't as injured as made out to be. That is plainly obvious. It's first 2 minutes in which the officer was begged over and over to let a human being of then-unknown medical status into the ER but utterly refused. This is the concerning part.

The part where the injured man gets out and attacks the LEO shows that he wasn't all that injured, but take that out of the equation for a minute and just concentrate on the LEOs actions for the first 2 minutes. Do you think they were appropriate? I believe absolutely not.
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I wasn't there, so I'm not going to pronounce judgment. But I will reiterate what I said earlier...this all could have been prevented if the driver had pulled over when the officer attempted the traffic stop. Anything that happens after that is at least partially her responsibility.
 
ffemt8978 said:
I wasn't there, so I'm not going to pronounce judgment. But I will reiterate what I said earlier...this all could have been prevented if the driver had pulled over when the officer attempted the traffic stop. Anything that happens after that is at least partially her responsibility.
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We weren't there, but we do have a video of everything that happened. Which clearly showed an officer of the law more concerned about a traffic ticket for a loud muffler and lack of turn signal than a potentially injured human being. Who happened to be black.
 
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