In Your Opinon....

[BloodNGlory02]

Last night my brother was involved in a semi-serious accident. A girl was driving, she says about 45 mph on a winding road. Speed limit is 55 (why she was going UNDER is beyond me) Anyways, supposedly a deer ran out, she swerved, hit the gravel, over corrected, lost control, she was ejected and the car rolled 3 times I think. My brother was front seat passenger and said he WAS wearing his seat belt. He was found unconcious in the backseat of the car. Apparently he was unconcious approximetely 5 minutes. he was full cspined and taken to the hospital. Upon his arrival @ the hospital he regained conciousness but had no idea what happened after she swerved. there was a 'less than nice' sherriff there upon his arrival who began questioning him "were you wearing your belt? were you drinking? etc" mind you my brother was not the driver. My brother replied "I thought I was wearing my belt" and the sherriff became irate and screamed at him "DONT LIE TO ME YOU PUNK" and stormed out of the ER saying "im gonna mail that SOB a ticket for obstructing me and lying"

NOW!!! Since my brother was NOT in custody, and not the driver of the vehicle, did that sherriff have any right to be in the ER in his room? Especially questioning him while the docs and nurses are trying to get vitals, the story, and assessment done?

BTW he's fine. Just has a concussion, punctured sinus, broke a few molars and his back looks like he ran thru the forest without clothes on.

 

[Chimpie]

First, I'm sorry for what happened.

Second, I really don't see any HIPPA violation since the police officer did not say anything about your brother's medical condition. Was the hospital in violation for having the officer there? I don't think so.

Did the officer act like a jerk? Absolutely.

 

[BloodNGlory02]

First, I'm sorry for what happened.

Second, I really don't see any HIPPA violation since the police officer did not say anything about your brother's medical condition. Was the hospital in violation for having the officer there? I don't think so.

Did the officer act like a jerk? Absolutely.

See we just did a HIPPA refresher and somewhere in there I remember the lady saying if the pt isnt in custody, isnt a suicidal threat, the officer has no right to pt information, therefore he shouldve been removed from the room since niether were the case.

 

[MedicPrincess]

The officer is allowed access to the patients room as part of his investigation. Where the HIPAA violation would come into play is if the nurse was giving the deputy details of your brothers condition, treatments, prognosis, ect.

An MVA **can be** a crime. A LEO has a sworn duty to uphold the law and in part of that is investigating crimes and potential crimes. The only way to do that in interview witnesses and those involved.

It is unfortunant he was such an *** about it, but based on what you said, there is no HIPAA violation there.

Now if he went through your brothers chart...that would be another story.


Hope he is doing better now.

 

[MMiz]

I'm sorry to hear about the accident but it's good to hear your brother is doing well.

I don't see any HIPAA violation here. The Sheriff was conducting his investigation and simply questioning your brother in relation to the accident.

Wrecking your car, even if no one is injured, is often against the law.

 

[TTLWHKR]

He didn't tell anyone, anything... So he hasn't violated HIPAA.

HIPAA states you can give and share patient info with:

Doctors Providing Care
Nurses Providing Care
other providers... Providing Care
Law Enforcement overseeing the incident
Insurance people
and in a Court of Law while sworn to provide the information in the case of litigation.

 

[CaptainPanic]

For one Im sorry what you and your brother are going through, my brother has had enough MVAs that the ER now has his name on the triage room.

Secondly I dont see a HIPAA violation. Now as for the SO being a real *** I would have told him to please exscuse himself from the ER and he can ask questions at a more appropriate time. (A ER Doc and ER nurse can tell the PD to leave if they are obstructing pt. care.)

I hate it when PD thinks they can give out tickets now and ask questions later, its going to be funny when the judge throws out your brothers ticket, and tells said officer to go take some refresher courses in law enforcement. LOL.

-Capn

 

[rescuejew]

I agree with everyone else, especially that the SO acted like an ***, however, you have to look at it from his standpoint too, now Im just assuming, but, if that female was unconscious and your brother was found in the backseat, he had no idea who the driver was. Perhaps he was just leaning on him to find out. Now I love cops (got some in the fam) so I have a bias.

I also KNOW as do many of you that cops often assume people are being uncooperative when we know its because they are altered or concussed or dizzy or whatever. So he probably assumed (which I will admit is wrong and unprofessional) that your brother was just some punk kid trying to evade Johnny-law.

It is also fact that more men than women engage in "less-than-safe" driving practices and with an accident that serious, perhaps the PoPo thought your bro was the driver for that reason.

Cops are always allowed in the room and privy to patient information when it directly relates to whether or not the pt will be available for questioning or released, etc.

I am NOT condoning the way that officer behaved, just trying to maybe shed a little light in his motives for being such a juvenile.

 

[Summit]

Originally posted by MMiz@Sep 10 2005, 10:26 PM
Wrecking your car, even if no one is injured, is often against the law.

I couldn't ever figure out how somebody can get a ticked for a 1 car no injury no other property damage MVA (or just hitting a deer).

 

[VinBin]

I had a question that was not related to this incident, but had to do with HIPPA and privacy laws...Is taking pictures of incident scenes or situations while on the job illegal even if all traces of personal identification are removed? I have seen a few images on the web of patients being treated and of accident scenes, who is in charge of clearing these types of images?

 

[Jon]

Depends.

If you do not show things that identfy the patient (name badges, faces, ID numbers, license plates, tattoos) it should be OK. It must be done in Good taste, though.

I remember once having a transfer from an ED to a Trauma Center for a 16 y/o male, who F***'d his arm up, majorly, with it having an extra 2 bends in it. the attending took a couple of pictures and copied the films to show her residents.

The PA Turnpike recently came out with a policy of no picture-taking at Turnpike incident scenes.... "the investigation and documentation is the responsibility of PA State Police Troop T."

So long as patient care isn't affected, and privacy is maintained, I have no problem taking pictures.

I like to have pictures of MVA's - they are nice to show to flight crews or the ED docs, let them see how bad the vehicle was, and why the guy with BS neck pain is a trauma alert.


Jon

 

[TTLWHKR]

Originally posted by MedicStudentJon@Oct 3 2005, 08:37 AM
Depends.

If you do not show things that identfy the patient (name badges, faces, ID numbers, license plates, tattoos) it should be OK. It must be done in Good taste, though.

I remember once having a transfer from an ED to a Trauma Center for a 16 y/o male, who F***'d his arm up, majorly, with it having an extra 2 bends in it. the attending took a couple of pictures and copied the films to show her residents.

The PA Turnpike recently came out with a policy of no picture-taking at Turnpike incident scenes.... "the investigation and documentation is the responsibility of PA State Police Troop T."

So long as patient care isn't affected, and privacy is maintained, I have no problem taking pictures.

I like to have pictures of MVA's - they are nice to show to flight crews or the ED docs, let them see how bad the vehicle was, and why the guy with BS neck pain is a trauma alert.


Jon

Locol protocol is to take 1 pic of the windshielf, 1 of the steering wheel, 1 of each occupied compartment, and 1 of each 'collision zone' on the vehicle.

They go to either the ER or the Chopper crew.

Polaroid is the best, but we also do Kodak Digital, and print them w/ a 4x6 portable HP375 printer in the ambulance.

 

[VinBin]

Wow...didnt know there were protocols for taking pictures...yea, i agree that taking random pictures of anything and everything can be in bad taste...

A medic once told me to always carry a camera on me (or in the ambulance)...

 

[Beegers]

Originally posted by VinBin@Oct 3 2005, 01:37 PM
A medic once told me to always carry a camera on me (or in the ambulance)...

I always carry my digital camera with me because I was once in a car accident where I was blamed for the damaged on the other car. Yes I did rearend the lady but the damaged was OBVIOUSLY old as there were holes and rust around the damage. THe cop that responded told the lady she was crazy.


HIPAA, i see no violation there. I hope everyone's okay. Last week I almost hit a deer with the ambulance on my way back to base. Too many in this area here. And turkeys.

I hate the hipaa laws. I get into fights with nurses all the time at work. They hand me the envelope for the patient (hospital discharge to nursing home usually, and sometimes with a DNR) and I go to open the envelope to check the papers and they start yelling at me HIPAA HIPAA blah blah blah. I just go back with "it was this hospital, this floor, that *points* nurse that gave me the right transfer form BUT THE WRONG CHART! Also, I've transported patients that look like they're about to crap out without a DNR and I go to look for the history and such and they yell at me again. Umm, okay...If the patient codes enroute to the nursing home, since I don't have a DNR, I will have to work on them (they had an INHOUSE DNR, but I didn't have a copy of one for emts/first responders) and depending on our location we may have to detour to closer hospital and then tell the doctor there that I'm too busy doing CPR and I don't know the history but you can dig through that envelope there for some information...

 

[VinBin]

What the..!!! Maybe I misread what you said Jb78, but they wont even let you, as a person transporting/caring for the patient, read the patients charts??!? I thought the patient history was allowed for those who care for patient?

This sounds crazy, if it is what I think it is....

 

[Jon]

I've seen the same thing with charts.

I was pampered for a while, as part of a hospital's Transport Ambulance division... the hospital staff didn't give us a problem with charts and HIPPA, because we could call our dispatcher, who would speak to them, and tell them we weren't taking the patient if I couldn't see the chart!!!

I worked for a transport co... we had a contract with a Psych "Response center" - where the PD brought all commitments, and many ED's transferred psych pt's who had been medically cleared.... they WOULD NOT let us see the patient's chart.... not just because of Hippa, but they also had transport guys loose the paperwork. I worked overnight, and was friendly with most of the overnight staff. They knew that, so long as they didn't mess up the paperwork, I didn't care what was in the envelope, so long as the "transfer sheet" that was taped to the envelope had billing info, demographic info, including SSN, and Medical PMH / Meds / rough hx of pt: "talking to themself" "Suicidal... with plan," etc.

I also always got a brief report... how the patient has been, did they need to be sedated (and are meds wearing off) and "anything I need to watch for?"

Never had a problem with that system, I never had to open the chart.


As for other places that would seal charts.... I'd open them.... at the nurses' station. At the VA, where they didn't do transfer paperwork (it was all in the computer system shared between VA hospitals and Nursing homes).... I was a prick and got all info before doing transfers... even "across the street" from the NH to Hospital. I also suggested to my boss.... many times... that they have the VA do a transfer form for us.... could probably computer generate it.... Never happened.

Jon

 

[Jon]

Originally posted by TTLWHKR@Oct 3 2005, 02:23 PM
Locol protocol is to take 1 pic of the windshielf, 1 of the steering wheel, 1 of each occupied compartment, and 1 of each 'collision zone' on the vehicle.

They go to either the ER or the Chopper crew.

Polaroid is the best, but we also do Kodak Digital, and print them w/ a 4x6 portable HP375 printer in the ambulance.

I like this.... espicially that you can print the digital pics in the squad.

Jon

 

[Beegers]

Originally posted by VinBin@Oct 4 2005, 07:28 PM
What the..!!! Maybe I misread what you said Jb78, but they wont even let you, as a person transporting/caring for the patient, read the patients charts??!? I thought the patient history was allowed for those who care for patient?

This sounds crazy, if it is what I think it is....

They adamently refused. Now one hospital is refusing to give us face sheets on discharges to home. They claim that's what our in house rep's job is....whatever.

On DNR patients, when they don't provide one, I just walk away saying "Okay we'll just work them up and bring them back to you"..... They find that paperwork pretty fast.

The one hospital that did **** up the paperwork, I carried around the hospital's own inhouse publication stating that TRANSPORT AMBULANCES do need access to the printed charts.

B) Score one for the team in blue!