How to cope

[Ridryder911]

Not sure why you would have left the baby with the parents. From what I have heard around here at least from an instructor who is also an EMT[/B.

A couple of things. Wow! They have EMS instructors that are not EMT's? uhhh With that maybe not a good one.. either as an EMT or instructor. Obviously they have no real field experience informing students of such nonsense. First time I found out an EMT transported a dead kid just because.. they will find their arses fired. Justify to me, why you treated and transported other than maternal instincts?

even if there is obviously nothing that can be done for a baby or small child, load and go. Gives the parents time to deal with the death and let them think everything was done that could be possibly done. Also the doctor at the hospital can inform the parents.

As for personally dealing with it, definitely talk to someone if it is really bothering you. Your dept should have CISM protocals.

There is so many things wrong with those statements. Be a health care professional! Quit being unethical and just plain incompetent!
So your piss poor sympathy has now increased anxiety that there maybe a ghost chance in hell that there is something to you attempting to resuscitate. Thanks to the oh caring one for costing the family grief to only be told how incompetent you were by the physician and then now to charge the family $1000 to $3,000 for an ambulance and ER bill! Giving families false hope and thoughts is not only cruel but unethical and negligence on being caring to the family. Guess what? It IS part of your job to inform when there is nothing left to do. Don't dump your dirty deeds onto the physician!

CISM for a dead baby? Get real! CISM has proven to be more harmful unless from a licensed psychiatric professional and I doubt most EMS will cover since it is a part of your job… deal with it or get out.
Ask your instructor if they are willing to pay for this type of behavior and treatment, since this what they are teaching you?

 

[trevor1189]

A couple of things. Wow! They have EMS instructors that are not EMT's? uhhh With that maybe not a good one.. either as an EMT or instructor. Obviously they have no real field experience informing students of such nonsense. First time I found out an EMT transported a dead kid just because.. they will find their arses fired. Justify to me, why you treated and transported other than maternal instincts?



There is so many things wrong with those statements. Be a health care professional! Quit being unethical and just plain incompetent!
So your piss poor sympathy has now increased anxiety that there maybe a ghost chance in hell that there is something to you attempting to resuscitate. Thanks to the oh caring one for costing the family grief to only be told how incompetent you were by the physician and then now to charge the family $1000 to $3,000 for an ambulance and ER bill! Giving families false hope and thoughts is not only cruel but unethical and negligence on being caring to the family. Guess what it IS part of your job to inform when there is nothing left to do. Don't dump your dirty deeds onto the physician!

CISM for a dead baby? Get real! CISM has proven to be more harmful unless from a licensed psychiatric professional and I doubt most EMS will cover since it is a part of your job… deal with it or get out.
Ask your instructor if they are willing to pay for this type of behavior and treatment, since this what they are teaching you?

They were not teaching an EMT course. Just a basic first aid/cpr course. But they happened to be an EMT. As I'm sure you can read in my signature I have not started EMT class yet.

 

[trevor1189]

I never told you not to post, I simply said you may want to wait 'til you're in class and educated about the problem before forming an opinion on the matter. I don't go around having specific issues with anyone, if I see a post I don't agree with, I post in response. Be it you, or someone I've befriended from the site. I didn't discount you because you are a student, I just don't see how you can speak with expertise with having very limited experience and no education on the matter. I'm not saying you should only accept my idea, I'm presenting my idea. And I'm always very passionate about my opinions.

I never claimed to have expertise. It clearly states that I am a student under my user name. I am simply expressing my opinion.

 

[reaper]

That is what they are trying to say. Do not listen to every EMT that tells you something. They may be a crappy provider and teaching you the wrong way.

If you get to a scene where the child is obviously been down for a while. Take the parents in the room, explain to them that it is too late to do anything, show them empathy and compassion. let them be with their child while you wait (unless the death is suspicious).

That is the way you deal with it. You do not scoop and run, giving the parents false hope and added grief!

 

[Ms.Medic]

I never claimed to have expertise. It clearly states that I am a student under my user name. I am simply expressing my opinion.

In my OPINION, your OPINION is just plain insane !!! There is no way in the world that I have ever heard of anyone doing what you are talking about. I am a mother of 2, one which was born at 24 weeks, came home on a monitor because he stopped breathing, and his heart stopped quite a bit. If something were to happen to him, in NO WAY would I want the paramedics to try anything on him. Tell me peacefully, without violating my child anymore, and let me hold him until the JP/funeral home gets there. Dont send me into a frinzzy trying to drive to the hospital to "see him for one more minute before he dies". Thats crazy for you to think thats okay. AND thats MY opinion.

 

[Ridryder911]

I never claimed to have expertise. It clearly states that I am a student under my user name. I am simply expressing my opinion.

Sorry, but your avator has an EMT patch on it. Student can mean anything from EMT student to Paramedic to Physician.

Opinions are fine, as long as one can justify their thought process. Hopefully, you will be taught differently by more qualified personnel. Just being EMT does not impress me or others as the course itself is far lacking.

Good luck, and hopefully you will understand our professional views as I see this type of scenario on a weekly basis from EMS to as a RN in a ER. We tend to see the "whole" picture and there is nothing more disheartning than telling family members that the EMT's should had never started anything. This only points out the flaws but causes hardships. p.s. many of the physicians do not tell the family, it maybe the nurses or Chaplains.

R/r 911

 

[fortsmithman]

My service would transport the babys body because we are also responsible for body transport.

 

[trevor1189]

Sorry, but your avator has an EMT patch on it. Student can mean anything from EMT student to Paramedic to Physician.

Opinions are fine, as long as one can justify their thought process. Hopefully, you will be taught differently by more qualified personnel. Just being EMT does not impress me or others as the course itself is far lacking.

Good luck, and hopefully you will understand our professional views as I see this type of scenario on a weekly basis from EMS to as a RN in a ER. We tend to see the "whole" picture and there is nothing more disheartning than telling family members that the EMT's should had never started anything. This only points out the flaws but causes hardships. p.s. many of the physicians do not tell the family, it maybe the nurses or Chaplains.

R/r 911

Sorry for the confusion about the student status then. I will fix that.

I definitely agree about the EMT course lacking. I have seen some EMTs that scare me with their lack of knowledge of the human body and how it works.

I am currently trying to take as many con ed classes as I can to educate myself better. It's funny because when they ask for my emt cert number so I get credit and I tell them that I am not an EMT yet, just came to further my education. They seem all confused and wonder why I am "wasting" my time taking classes I don't get credit for. I guess they don't realize that even without credit there is stuff to always be learned.

 

[exodus]

Here, we are supposed to work and transport all PD / FF / Medic fallen in line of duty other than obviously dead criteria. Even if they are obviously dead, we can still work them if there are large crowds, etc. This is primarly to prevent public outcry and the city picks up the bill.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

My service would transport the babys body because we are also responsible for body transport.

Ditto.

You know a thread is screwed up when I feel that I have to be the voice of reason. A few points...

Trevor...

Yes, you are an EMT student. Yes, you have a right to your opinion. The people here also have the right to not take your opinion seriously because of your status as an EMT student with minimal field experience. Get used to it. Until your years in this field have reached double digits, there will always be somebody out there who will talk down on you because of a lack of experience or education. And even if you do have 10, 15, 20, hell, 30 years of field experience, there will always be some intern or resident who will treat you like a moron because of "lack of education". Get used to it. We are the middle men of medicine. As an EMT, the public will think you have more skills than you do and your superiors (nurses, physicians, etc.) will think you have less skills than you do. It happens. Somebody will always talk down on you because of your status. Now, you still have a right to your opinion, even if few on here will take it seriously.

Other people...

I can't say what I would want if I were the parent of a baby who stopped breathing because I've never been a parent. Some parents may want transport, even though they know there is nothing that can be done. It may ease their minds to know that everything that could possibly be done was done. Again, it's possible. Also, while I don't necessarily disagree with your opinions, sometimes some of you tend to come off as condescending.

Personally, I would do what the parents wanted. If the baby wasn't showing any signs of obvious death (lividity, rigor, etc.) I would work it. If the baby was showing obvious signs of death (lividity, rigor, etc.), I would tell them that all resuscitation efforts would most likely be futile. But I would give them the choice. If they chose to have nothing done, I would be a grief mop until PD and/or the coroner got there. If they chose to have the baby worked, I would keep them updated. And I would be honest with them. If our efforts were doing nothing, I would tell them, and if at any time they wanted to terminate efforts, I would call medical command and get permission to call it. If they wanted the baby transported, I would transport... NON-EMERGENT. No reason to risk our lives for a dead baby.

I only skimmed the thread, but did anybody here mention giving the parents a choice?

To the OP...

As for dealing with tragedy, I just block it out. Do what's in your job description. But do not get attached. Do not become emotionally involved. It will destroy you. Like in this instance, you would have to tell the parents that there was nothing you could do. You would get the coroner or PD on scene, maybe be questioned by PD, and you would go right back to work. Do you think anybody else who was in that room would be going back to work anytime soon? The bottom line is that you're doing a job. Care about what you're paid to care about. Worry about what you're paid to worry about. But once you get back to the station or once you get home for the night, ignore it. My solution is just not to care beyond what I'm required to. There are many who will disagree with that, but it's how I cope. It may sound harsh or callous or (insert your negative descriptive term here), but it's one way to get by.

And I'll stop now, because I think I just set the record for my longest post ever.

 

[trevor1189]

Ditto.

You know a thread is screwed up when I feel that I have to be the voice of reason. A few points...

Trevor...

Yes, you are an EMT student. Yes, you have a right to your opinion. The people here also have the right to not take your opinion seriously because of your status as an EMT student with minimal field experience. Get used to it. Until your years in this field have reached double digits, there will always be somebody out there who will talk down on you because of a lack of experience or education. And even if you do have 10, 15, 20, hell, 30 years of field experience, there will always be some intern or resident who will treat you like a moron because of "lack of education". Get used to it. We are the middle men of medicine. As an EMT, the public will think you have more skills than you do and your superiors (nurses, physicians, etc.) will think you have less skills than you do. It happens. Somebody will always talk down on you because of your status. Now, you still have a right to your opinion, even if few on here will take it seriously.

Other people...

I can't say what I would want if I were the parent of a baby who stopped breathing because I've never been a parent. Some parents may want transport, even though they know there is nothing that can be done. It may ease their minds to know that everything that could possibly be done was done. Again, it's possible. Also, while I don't necessarily disagree with your opinions, sometimes some of you tend to come off as condescending.

Personally, I would do what the parents wanted. If the baby wasn't showing any signs of obvious death (lividity, rigor, etc.) I would work it. If the baby was showing obvious signs of death (lividity, rigor, etc.), I would tell them that all resuscitation efforts would most likely be futile. But I would give them the choice. If they chose to have nothing done, I would be a grief mop until PD and/or the coroner got there. If they chose to have the baby worked, I would keep them updated. And I would be honest with them. If our efforts were doing nothing, I would tell them, and if at any time they wanted to terminate efforts, I would call medical command and get permission to call it. If they wanted the baby transported, I would transport... NON-EMERGENT. No reason to risk our lives for a dead baby.

I only skimmed the thread, but did anybody here mention giving the parents a choice?

To the OP...

As for dealing with tragedy, I just block it out. Do what's in your job description. But do not get attached. Do not become emotionally involved. It will destroy you. Like in this instance, you would have to tell the parents that there was nothing you could do. You would get the coroner or PD on scene, maybe be questioned by PD, and you would go right back to work. Do you think anybody else who was in that room would be going back to work anytime soon? The bottom line is that you're doing a job. Care about what you're paid to care about. Worry about what you're paid to worry about. But once you get back to the station or once you get home for the night, ignore it. My solution is just not to care beyond what I'm required to. There are many who will disagree with that, but it's how I cope. It may sound harsh or callous or (insert your negative descriptive term here), but it's one way to get by.

And I'll stop now, because I think I just set the record for my longest post ever.

Thank you for your support. Definitely something to consider, parents requests. If a parent asked for resuscitation efforts then I would absolutely do a "show" code. I am not a parent, but I can only imagine what they would be going through and as an average person not in EMS, I would want them to try to do everything they can.

 

[Ridryder911]

Sorry, but you guys are badly mistaken. The parent do NOT have a choice as all dead bodies are presumed homicide until otherwise determined. A few hours discussing this with your superiors and the District Attorney will change your mind as they may attempt filing charges against you.

You made the determination they were dead, then there is either obvious signs or not. It is not a guessing game or "hey; what do you want us to do?".. duh? ..

You are supposed to know either to effectively perform resuscitation on a infant that has the possibility to respond or not. If not, you should had called it. This is NOT a game nor a drama conquest.

Most officers after finding out it is an DOA may not even allow medics within the room, no matter who you think you are.

Be careful of what you say and what you do. Your actions and words have a lifetime consequences.

For those that would do a "show code" I will be willing to testify against you for free in unethical and possibly emotional distraught to the parents. You should be removed from the health field for the pain and suffering of presenting an unrealistic outcome to the family. You are cruel and inhumane and just admitted you do not know how to do this job accurately! This is NOT TV we are not actors! We perform resuscitation because we may resuscitate the infant, nothing else!
R/r 911

 

[reaper]

:beerchug: Bravo :beerchug:

 

[AJ Hidell]

Sorry, but your avator has an EMT patch on it. Student can mean anything from EMT student to Paramedic to Physician.

I'm not big on draconian forum rules, but I really wish we could get one on the rampant misrepresentation going on here. If you are not legally entitled to use a title or wear an emblem, you shouldn't be posting it with your name. It's not cute. It's not funny. It doesn't make us admire your goals. It's just dishonest and misleading, and loses you major respect points.

 

[Ridryder911]

After reading my last post's I am going to have to quit posting per phone.. apologize for the grammar. It sucked.

R/r 911

 

[Sasha]

After reading my last post's I am going to have to quit posting per phone.. apologize for the grammar. It sucked.

R/r 911

Wow, that was a phone post? Ten times better than any of my phone posts.

Bad grammar and spelling mistakes is part of the creative writing process

 

[trevor1189]

I'm not big on draconian forum rules, but I really wish we could get one on the rampant misrepresentation going on here. If you are not legally entitled to use a title or wear an emblem, you shouldn't be posting it with your name. It's not cute. It's not funny. It doesn't make us admire your goals. It's just dishonest and misleading, and loses you major respect points.

Sorry to hear that. I really was looking for your respect. -_-

You know Paramedic students wear a paramedic patch with student underneith it. That is how my profile is setup. Also in my signature it clearly states my level of education and future plans.

If you can't take the time to read it, that's not really my fault. It's an internet forum, not like I go around wearing one in real life.

You need to loosen up a bit, it's just an avatar. If it bothers you that much, you may add me to your ignore list and then you don't even have to look at. I really won't mind.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

Sorry, but you guys are badly mistaken. The parent do NOT have a choice as all dead bodies are presumed homicide until otherwise determined. A few hours discussing this with your superiors and the District Attorney will change your mind as they may attempt filing charges against you.

You made the determination they were dead, then there is either obvious signs or not. It is not a guessing game or "hey; what do you want us to do?".. duh? ..

You are supposed to know either to effectively perform resuscitation on a infant that has the possibility to respond or not. If not, you should had called it. This is NOT a game nor a drama conquest.

Most officers after finding out it is an DOA may not even allow medics within the room, no matter who you think you are.

Be careful of what you say and what you do. Your actions and words have a lifetime consequences.

For those that would do a "show code" I will be willing to testify against you for free in unethical and possibly emotional distraught to the parents. You should be removed from the health field for the pain and suffering of presenting an unrealistic outcome to the family. You are cruel and inhumane and just admitted you do not know how to do this job accurately! This is NOT TV we are not actors! We perform resuscitation because we may resuscitate the infant, nothing else!
R/r 911

If you thought I said anything remotely close to anything resembling a "guessing game", then you need to reread my post and stop being condescending just because you can. Did I ever say this was a game? Or a drama request?

On DOAs around here, we are required to stay with the body until the coroner arrives. That goes for all bodies. And yes, I have had this confirmed by my superiors.

And as for testifying against me for doing a "show code" and giving false hope, maybe I need to elaborate a bit more on what I would say to the parents. It would probably go something along the lines of "Sorry, your kid is dead, but if you want us to do CPR just so you can rest your poor little heads, sure, why the hell not?", except perhaps not as blunt.

As for all dead bodies being presumed homicide until otherwise determined, I doubt it. I also doubt that the officers would charge EMS personnel with anything, because there was a call in my area similar to the one the OP described. Infant, pulseless, apneic, unknown downtime, blood in the airway, rigor starting to set in, etc. Not only did EMS work it, but they got a police escort to the hospital. Something tells me that officer won't charge them with anything. So, before you try to tell me that I am unfit to be in my profession, answer one question: are you ready to speak for ALL EMS personnel and ALL LEOs in the entire country?

 

[EMTinNEPA]

Besides, wasn't this thread about coping?

 

[Ridryder911]

If you thought I said anything remotely close to anything resembling a "guessing game", then you need to reread my post and stop being condescending just because you can. Did I ever say this was a game? Or a drama request?

On DOAs around here, we are required to stay with the body until the coroner arrives. That goes for all bodies. And yes, I have had this confirmed by my superiors.

And as for testifying against me for doing a "show code" and giving false hope, maybe I need to elaborate a bit more on what I would say to the parents. It would probably go something along the lines of "Sorry, your kid is dead, but if you want us to do CPR just so you can rest your poor little heads, sure, why the hell not?", except perhaps not as blunt.

As for all dead bodies being presumed homicide until otherwise determined, I doubt it. I also doubt that the officers would charge EMS personnel with anything, because there was a call in my area similar to the one the OP described. Infant, pulseless, apneic, unknown downtime, blood in the airway, rigor starting to set in, etc. Not only did EMS work it, but they got a police escort to the hospital. Something tells me that officer won't charge them with anything. So, before you try to tell me that I am unfit to be in my profession, answer one question: are you ready to speak for ALL EMS personnel and ALL LEOs in the entire country?

You obviously don't know real life yet! You have a dead body; it is a crime scene until otherwise proven. Yes, I have seen bull headed medics be placed into cuffs. Wait until they have a child abuse case that was mistaken for SIDS, and then see how things will occur. So the Police gave you an escort.. Great! Now you admitted your crew now has placed more than themselves in danger; when it should had never occurred to begin with!

Why would anyone with any brain matter that pretends to have any medical or knowledge ask the family...? What would you like me to do? How do you think they would respond? DUH! If you have to ask the family "what would like us to do?" Then you sure hell don’t need to be there! Apparently, anyone that would ask a grieving family such a question is incompetent. Prove me wrong.

Do they not teach your medics, rigor setting in = dead? Geez.. Did they ever take an AHA Healthcare Provider CPR there? How unethical and inconsiderate your guys were. Are they that ignorant or just lacked cerebral perfusion? Thank you EMS for asking what to do (knowing all along the efforts were futile) and now creating thousands of dollars of charges; all because you did not know how to determine death!

Let me ask you, would they done the same if it was an adult? If not then they are performing age discrimination as well!

Sorry, but you hit a raw nerve as I have seen too many "life savers" that did not have the integrity to be able to call a dead child dead because "they" were uncomfortable. Sorry,the emergency is not about them nor their feelings. Be a medical professional, more than that do your job!

Inform the family it is too late, close the door, secure the scene until LEO arrives and ask only pertinent and direct questions without any accusations or emphasis. Attempt to comfort the family within reasons and empathy. They are your patient, be professional and the family will defintely far resect you more than to later find out that you only were only performing a "show" code.

R/r 911