How much of a disadvantage will I be at?

[Arovetli]

In the states, pre/co reqs for paramedic should at least be A&P 1&2, Chem 1, Bio 1 and College Algebra and Composition 1 or sufficient scores on a placement exam for exemption.

I hope this comes to fruition, leaving EMT/AEMT as certificates to keep the fire folks happy

 

[ExpatMedic0]

In the states, pre/co reqs for paramedic should at least be A&P 1&2, Chem 1, Bio 1 and College Algebra and Composition 1 or sufficient scores on a placement exam for exemption.

What you just described is known as an Associates degree ;-) But, yes we should require such a thing.

 

[Arovetli]

What you just described is known as an Associates degree ;-) But, yes we should require such a thing.

An associates degree is also known as an archaic relic in American education that bears rapidly increasing insignificant academic weight.

I mean, I'm glad to see some progress but seriously, it's 2013.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

yes but even RT and RN's are still plentiful with associates degrees. In fact, in a recent discussion on this forum we found more RN's hold ADN's than BSN's. This was according to nation wide quantitative data we looked at.
What I don't get is... a Paramedic program is over a years worth of college credit (sometimes more) you add EMT classes on top of that and all you have left is the community college basic skills requirements. These vary from state to state, but its normally another 9 months of very cheap education which can partially be completed online. Why not? Why do people fight this idea so much?

 

[Arovetli]

yes but even RT and RN's are still plentiful with associates degrees. In fact, in a recent discussion on this forum we found more RN's hold ADN's than BSN's. This was according to nation wide quantitative data we looked at.
What I don't get is... a Paramedic program is over a years worth of college credit (sometimes more) you add EMT classes on top of that and all you have left is the community college basic skills requirements. These vary from state to state, but its normally another 9 months of very cheap education which can partially be completed online. Why not? Why do people fight this idea so much?

I think, or at least Im guessing, that some of the pushback comes from fire or hospital oriented programs as they want quicker training pathways.

Yes to RN/RRT but they both have b.s. linkages and "residencies" (as you know) and there are many hospitals that are only employing B.S.N.'s.

It would be so EMS of us to finally get our progressive on an adopt an entry level standard of associates education and then over the next 40 years still be the only healthcare professional getting trained at the community college.

There is an utter dearth of qualified students for EMS, as many smart and motivated ones are driven to other programs. The problem is yes, we know we need pre reqs or an entrance exam, but that weeds out students and generated less income for the school. It's unfortunate, but that's life. Until reimbursements and working conditions improve, a rigor should be added to the back end of education in the form of exit exams and registry. That way only the best get through and all the tuition dollars the school could want are captured, so the college president can plant more shrubs.

You are correct, by the time someone progresses through the technical education requirements of paramedic, they have collected a good bit of college. Only thing is, it's lower division credit. And it's at a community college, which is not exactly held to be the blazing bastion of higher education.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

You are correct, by the time someone progresses through the technical education requirements of paramedic, they have collected a good bit of college. Only thing is, it's lower division credit. And it's at a community college, which is not exactly held to be the blazing bastion of higher education.

It is indeed community college, but on the majority of community college transcripts it specifies "level of education: undergraduate" because it transfers to most universities. Many people decide to save a few bucks by completing some the gen ed at community college for this reason.

Its just a real shame, there are some very bright people in EMS. In fact, its absolutely amazing how much knowledge a good paramedic may have over the years, simply through personal interdisciplinary study, work experience, and review. The FP-C exam demonstrates this for example. Also, just look at some of the post on this forum. We have so much potential in a lot of our people.
There are also a lot of knuckle heads and "meat head medicine" guys/gals, maybe even more than the others I speak of. I just wish we could start to move things a long a little bit faster in EMS, for everyone's sake.

 

[Arovetli]

It is indeed community college, but on the majority of community college transcripts it specifies "level of education: undergraduate" because it transfers to most universities. Many people decide to save a few bucks by completing some the gen ed at community college for this reason.

Its just a real shame, there are some very bright people in EMS. In fact, its absolutely amazing how much knowledge a good paramedic may have over the years, simply through personal interdisciplinary study, work experience, and review. The FP-C exam demonstrates this for example. Also, just look at some of the post on this forum. We have so much potential in a lot of our people.
There are also a lot of knuckle heads and "meat head medicine" guys/gals, maybe even more than the others I speak of. I just wish we could start to move things a long a little bit faster in EMS, for everyone's sake.

im with you, tuition costs are incredible. Yes, gen ed transfers, and it is lower division undergraduate credit. The problem there is no matter how much time you play in the lower division sandbox, you are still going to have to complete ~2 years of upper division courses to graduate with a Bachelor's.

A problem with present and past bachelors EMS programs is that they are, well, useless.

They don't presently prepare you or qualify you for much of anything at all, and especially for zero things outside of EMS. For management, you are better off with a degree from the business program, for science you are better off with a science degree, and for public health you are better off with that.

A way to rectify this is to adopt a method similar to BSN linkages where some of the lower division credit may be translated to satisfy some upper division credit, and give 300/400 level credit for additional clinical rotations, ACLS, PALS, CCEMTP, AMLS, PEC, ASLS, FPC/CCP exam, Difficult airway, TCCC and all the other established alphabet courses as well as some instructor certs. Throw in a science elective, a statistics intro, a management/public health course, and the writing/research class to round it out, but make the bulk of the BS degree be actual clinical training that is already recognized and required by some employers.

In other words instead of running trying to grab all these alphabet courses, if they comprised the bulk of a BS program I think you would attract alot more folks. These are classes people take, or want to take, anyways, and coming out with a bachelors plus every established and recognized alphabet/con ed class is pretty attractive. From a hiring prospective, the bachelors would certify at least prior knowledge in these fields, so you wouldn't have to dig through an application looking for certificate cards.

A better overall measure of academic/clinical preparation.

Yes, I agree by the time a medic gets some experience and takes alot of the established con ed classes, he/she is quite knowledgable and deserves recognition for that.

 

[MrJones]

im with you, tuition costs are incredible. Yes, gen ed transfers, and it is lower division undergraduate credit. The problem there is no matter how much time you play in the lower division sandbox, you are still going to have to complete ~2 years of upper division courses to graduate with a Bachelor's.

A problem with present and past bachelors EMS programs is that they are, well, useless.

They don't presently prepare you or qualify you for much of anything at all, and especially for zero things outside of EMS. For management, you are better off with a degree from the business program, for science you are better off with a science degree, and for public health you are better off with that.

A way to rectify this is to adopt a method similar to BSN linkages where some of the lower division credit may be translated to satisfy some upper division credit, and give 300/400 level credit for additional clinical rotations, ACLS, PALS, CCEMTP, AMLS, PEC, ASLS, FPC/CCP exam, Difficult airway, TCCC and all the other established alphabet courses. Throw in a science elective, a statistics intro, a management/public health course, and the writing/research class to round it out, but make the bulk of the BS degree be actual clinical training that is already recognized and required by some employers.

In other words instead of running trying to grab all these alphabet courses, if they comprised the bulk of a BS program I think you would attract alot more folks. These are classes people take, or want to take, anyways, and coming out with a bachelors plus every established and recognized alphabet/con ed class is pretty attractive. From a hiring prospective, the bachelors would certify at least prior knowledge in these fields, so you wouldn't have to dig through an application looking for certificate cards.

A better overall measure of academic/clinical preparation.

Yes, I agree by the time a medic gets some experience and takes alot of the established con ed classes, he/she is quite knowledgable and deserves recognition for that.

PALS, ACLS, PTLS and AMLS are all required 300 level courses for both Associate and Bachelor degrees at EKU, as are clinicals and internship. In fact, all required Associate Degree core paramedic classes are 300 level; the additional required courses for the BS are 400 level.

 

[Arovetli]

i am aware of this, as well as of the curriculums of all programs in the states. the post is broad for those who are not.

it is a good start to standardization.

the problem though is there are still wide variances in curriculum. There are forward thinking clinical training programs like eku and creighton, but even there, its nutty to have all common lower level courses directly count as upper level courses. it creates confusion. and you still have ems programs comprised of management or public health...


standardization.

 

[MrJones]

i am aware of this, as well as of the curriculums of all programs in the states. the post is broad for those who are not.

it is a good start to standardization.

I'd be interested to know, then, what other programs are already offering most, if not all, of what you have proposed. As would others here, I'm sure.

 

[Arovetli]

I'd be interested to know, then, what other programs are already offering most, if not all, of what you have proposed. As would others here, I'm sure.

i think expat's signature links to the naemt which maintains a list of programs. although none of them are quite to the level they should be.

as an aside, i think we should form a committee to hire Mary Mundinger as a consultant to advancing ems education. within a decade paramedics would be performing appys in the back of battletanks.

 

[chaz90]

as an aside, i think we should form a committee to hire Mary Mundinger as a consultant to advancing ems education. within a decade paramedics would be performing appys in the back of battletanks.

But then we'd have to be called Paranurses and drafted into the Cult of Mundinger.

 

[Arovetli]

But then we'd have to be called Paranurses and drafted into the Cult of Mundinger.

If you are not willing to trade your soul, you lack the dedication to excel as a paramedic. Priorities man, priorities.

For those unaware of the Good Miss Mundinger, it may help you to know that Vigo from Ghostbusters 2 was her firstborn son. However unlike her spawn, she is impervious to proton pack blasts and happiness.

 

[Wheel]

i think expat's signature links to the naemt which maintains a list of programs. although none of them are quite to the level they should be.

as an aside, i think we should form a committee to hire Mary Mundinger as a consultant to advancing ems education. within a decade paramedics would be performing appys in the back of battletanks.

I have found that UTHSCSA has a good curriculum that offers a lot of classes for clinical knowledge, not just a management concentration. A problem that I see is that most are very expensive, especially if you're out of state or if it is a private institution. It's hardly justifiable to pay $35k to go to George Washington online for two years for little financial incentive. South alabama and UTHSCSA are much better price wise, but they are in the minority I'm afraid.

I can only really speak to online ones though, as that is what I've researched the most.

 

[Arovetli]

Yeah the expense is atrocious especially at this stage in the game where there is no financial payoff.

How about a consortium? If we can nationally agree upon a basic curriculum framework then the state EMS agencies could partner with the technical colleges and select universities to offer the courses and credits at various sites and training centers throughout the state. The degree could be awarded and coordinated by a single state university but classes/courses can be online and have regional meetings.

Something like that. thoughts?

 

[Wheel]

Yeah the expense is atrocious especially at this stage in the game where there is no financial payoff.

How about a consortium? If we can nationally agree upon a basic curriculum framework then the state EMS agencies could partner with the technical colleges and select universities to offer the courses and credits at various sites and training centers throughout the state. The degree could be awarded and coordinated by a single state university but classes/courses can be online and have regional meetings.

Something like that. thoughts?

You would be hard pressed to find enough university quality instructors to teach it at multiple sites in each state. Online would be better, with maybe some local clinical/practical classes.

 

[Arovetli]

You would be hard pressed to find enough university quality instructors to teach it at multiple sites in each state. Online would be better, with maybe some local clinical/practical classes.

If the curriculum can be bulked up with alphabet courses and the already developed con/ed classes, all you would need are local instructors. Tuition and credit can be awarded for these courses instead of designing a whole new curriculum. True online university courses in management, public health, stats can supplement.

We have the content and instructors, it would be bringing it together under one academic roof and recognizing it with a degree instead of piecemeal wallet cards.

 

[Wheel]

If the curriculum can be bulked up with alphabet courses and the already developed con/ed classes, all you would need are instructors. Tuition and credit can be awarded for these courses instead of designing a whole new curriculum. True online university courses in management, public health, stats can supplement.

Probably would work, if by miracle we found agree on a national standard. I don't see that on the horizon sadly.

 

[Arovetli]

it would probably take a forward thinking state or couple of states to implement it. perhaps that would provide a bit of momentum.

i would think entities such as aha, umbc, bcctpc, and the naemt who develop/promote these courses would be happy to jump on board, as the more classes taught/degrees awarded = more money for them.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

similar to my signature link http://www.capems.org/get/

I am pretty happy with the CWU BS in Paramedicine http://www.cwu.edu/health-science/paramedicine-major-courses
Most of us choose Chem 101 or Nutrition 101, along with Bio 101, and A&P1 for our breadth science requirements. You can see the major courses above. 1st year is the medic program with some clinical extras, 2nd year is mostly research, management, and education. But patho is also there, along with a Terrorism class.