How hostile does your work need to become?

[mycrofft]

Time and time and time again, on this forum (and in real life) I have heard people complaining about being bullied, insulted, ordered around and otherwise screwed around with by people the complainant feels can do it, but then states the irritant is either NOT in a position to do so, or is abusing such a position (be it official, or informal such as a boss's girlfriend).

1. Are folks not being taught about what to do in the workplace about this sort of stuff?
2. Any genuine stories about when you reacted to such treatment, and what happened?
3. Any folks here with legal background (calling EMSLAW...) with more to say about this?

My take on this from experience is that often the abuser is not actually in a position to hurt you, or the potential for abuse is so endemic that the answer is to leave them to paddle in their own foetid little backwater. Also, note that unity against such abuse can be the start to something bigger...

 

[triemal04]

I think a large part of the problem is from the culture that we have in the US right now. As more and more younger people enter EMS the focus and mindset is going to shift, as it has in society as a whole, to being focused on "me" and being less willing to take any type of criticism. Wanting instant gratification for something, and not being willing to listen when faults are pointed out, or when tasked with something that is deemed "beneath them."

I think it's probably been an ongoing problem at least since I got involved in EMS, but I do think that it's getting worse, and will continue to do so.

Add in that, taken as a whole, there is still more than a touch of a "fly by night" mentality to many services, especially at the lower levels, and an over saturated job market. That will make it easy for people to get away with more than they would in a different setting.

 

[TatuICU]

Time and time and time again, on this forum (and in real life) I have heard people complaining about being bullied, insulted, ordered around and otherwise screwed around with by people the complainant feels can do it, but then states the irritant is either NOT in a position to do so, or is abusing such a position (be it official, or informal such as a boss's girlfriend).

1. Are folks not being taught about what to do in the workplace about this sort of stuff?
2. Any genuine stories about when you reacted to such treatment, and what happened?
3. Any folks here with legal background (calling EMSLAW...) with more to say about this?

My take on this from experience is that often the abuser is not actually in a position to hurt you, or the potential for abuse is so endemic that the answer is to leave them to paddle in their own foetid little backwater. Also, note that unity against such abuse can be the start to something bigger...

I had a boss that would dump transfers on us constantly and of course would change the rules so that she could get out of doing things. She was so lazy that there was actually a time where she responded to a car wreck, started coding a patient, intubated, pushed the first round of epi, then sent the pt on their way with an intermediate unit (she was a medic) and somehow got away with it.

How did I deal with it? Well the last time I got screwed by her I made her stop on the turnpike so I could have a word. I basically got out of the truck threw my badge at here, told her I quit, then proceeded to call her everything but a white woman. I told her she was a disgrace and that she was very very lucky she was a woman because that was the only reason why she still had her teeth. I then got in the unit and alerted dispatch that we were 10-7 until further notice. I got back to the station, made a phone call, packed my things and headed home. It was about 20 minutes until I got a phone call from her fretfully sobbing and begging me not to quit. She apologized about 1000 times and so instead of quitting right then and there I just gave them my two weeks. Made a phone call and had a new job the following day with more pay and actual benefits. Did my two weeks, threw the dueces and the next time I saw her was when that company got shut down and she ended up bar tending at some dump i ran a call at.

There are too many jobs and opportunities out there to put up with that kind of crap.

 

[Justice]

I think a large part of the problem is from the culture that we have in the US right now. As more and more younger people enter EMS the focus and mindset is going to shift, as it has in society as a whole, to being focused on "me" and being less willing to take any type of criticism. Wanting instant gratification for something, and not being willing to listen when faults are pointed out, or when tasked with something that is deemed "beneath them."QUOTE]

While I agree with this, On the opposite side you have the older population. The feeling of why cant the younger crew do that. With EMS being much busier then it was 20 years ago you have a 40-60yr EMT who cant keep up with 18-25yr EMT because they might be use to a slower pace and they have years of abuse from the job on their body.

At my volunteer job I worked with a medic who claimed he was one of the first medics ever and considering he showed me his badge from when he worked at AMR (I know they arent the oldest ambulance service) and his employee number was less the 25, I would say there is a chance. (Told me he remembers being an EMT doing intercepts to give the pt O2 because the "Ambulance drivers" could not. Well back on topic, He stated ambulance is one of those job fields where rather then nuture the new they like to eat their young.

Mostly I think it has to do with so few ambulances services in some areas that people feel less people in the job field, means job security

 

[EFDUnit823]

If I am not mistaken, were you not the same who posted about your employer’s possible participation in fraudulent reporting? Aside from that, I cannot say this has been my experience. In my area, Paramedics are a relatively “new” thing (late 70s-early 80s) and work(ed) with many who have been practicing that long. When I first started, I mistook many of their “slow” actions for burn-out, old age, etc… However, the more I worked to learn from them, the further from the truth I found myself. A “seasoned” Paramedic have grasped the understanding that, “it’s not my emergency, it’s theirs.” Understanding this limits tunnel vision and helps maintain a calm attitude, both essential in our profession.

If I may suggest, I would suggest you take advantage of the “seasoned” Paramedics you encounter, by working to learn what they know. I would prefer to work with a “seasoned” Medic over a text book genius any day.

 

[Justice]

If I am not mistaken, were you not the same who posted about your employer’s possible participation in fraudulent reporting? .

And that has what to do with anything in this thread?

A “seasoned” Paramedic have grasped the understanding that, “it’s not my emergency, it’s theirs.” .

Dear God stay away from my family

If I may suggest, I would suggest you take advantage of the “seasoned” Paramedics you encounter, by working to learn what they know. I would prefer to work with a “seasoned” Medic over a text book genius any day.

I agree but perhaps I need to clairify. I am referring to speed as far as transports. 20yr might be willing to jump right back in the rig and knock out 10 more trips while the older worker MIGHT have the mentality of im here for x hours and I will not let them run me like a dog.

in the Owners eyes the younger EMT makes the company more money.

None of this was how I feel or how I work, Simply an idea of why their is hostility in EMS

 

[EFDUnit823]

“And that has what to do with anything in this thread?”-Justice

After rereading you OP, I see you actually had not referred to your place of employment in your last paragraph. Had that been the case, I was going to suggest “pony-up” and simply find a new job. Instead, I stand corrected as there is no correlation.

“Dear God stay away from my family”-Justice

Not to be an ***, but you should really take some time and consider this statement. Once you fully understand it, you would think otherwise. Would you prefer to have someone treating your loved one high on adrenaline, or someone with a cool head capable of digesting the whole picture? My guess is that you may have not witnessed a chaotic scene dominated by those hopped up on adrenaline. It’s ugly, unprofessional, and in most cases creates additional patient anxiety that would not have been there if you remained calm. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

“…I am referring to speed as far as transports. 20yr might be willing to jump right back in the rig and knock out 10 more trips while the older worker MIGHT have the mentality of im her for x hours and I will not let them run me like a dog. in the Owners eyes the younger EMT makes the company more money…”-Justice

Those “older” workers are more than likely our trail blazers, and the reason why we have a profession. Their blood, sweat, and tears have established to the “powers that be” that pre-hospital care is an essential part of patient treatment. Thus, they should be awarded their due respect. In my opinion, it would be shameful to see any new EMT want to throw a seasoned EMT under the bus because they “supposedly” can out-work them.

 

[Justice]

“And that has what to do with anything in this thread?”-Justice

After rereading you OP, I see you actually had not referred to your place of employment in your last paragraph. Had that been the case, I was going to suggest “pony-up” and simply find a new job. Instead, I stand corrected as there is no correlation.

“Dear God stay away from my family”-Justice

Not to be an ***, but you should really take some time and consider this statement. Once you fully understand it, you would think otherwise. Would you prefer to have someone treating your loved one high on adrenaline, or someone with a cool head capable of digesting the whole picture? My guess is that you may have not witnessed a chaotic scene dominated by those hopped up on adrenaline. It’s ugly, unprofessional, and in most cases creates additional patient anxiety that would not have been there if you remained calm. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

“…I am referring to speed as far as transports. 20yr might be willing to jump right back in the rig and knock out 10 more trips while the older worker MIGHT have the mentality of im her for x hours and I will not let them run me like a dog. in the Owners eyes the younger EMT makes the company more money…”-Justice

Those “older” workers are more than likely our trail blazers, and the reason why we have a profession. Their blood, sweat, and tears have established to the “powers that be” that pre-hospital care is an essential part of patient treatment. Thus, they should be awarded their due respect. In my opinion, it would be shameful to see any new EMT want to throw a seasoned EMT under the bus because they “supposedly” can out-work them.

I dont have time to seperate all the qoutes but

#1 I dont throw anyone under the bus but an Owner can look at performance. As I stated these are not my feelings but simply how someone can look at the situation.

#2 The overall goal is always to get the person to the hospital. Untill Surgeons and MRI machines etc etc are carried on an ambulance I will rush to a point. This is what EMS is for. rapid assesment of the situation and getting the person as safely and quickly to the hospital as possible.
If you sit around on scene trying to start a line 3 times on my family member rather then doing it enroute like any good medic would then yes I will be banging on the back of that door.

 

[EFDUnit823]

“#2 The overall goal is always to get the person to the hospital. Untill Surgeons and MRI machines etc etc are carried on an ambulance I will rush to a point. This is what EMS is for. rapid assesment of the situation and getting the person as safely and quickly to the hospital as possible. If you sit around on scene trying to start a line 3 times on my family member rather then doing it enroute like any good medic would then yes I will be banging on the back of that door.”-Justice

I don’t know about you, but I am not an ambulance driver I am a medical provider. EMTs provide pre-hospital medical care, not just a quick ride to the hospital. With good assessment, you will know whether to stay and play or load and go.

As for the Medics who cannot leave scene until an IV is started, you have left the realm of generally speaking to a specific. In regard to this, I too have an issue with an EMT who cannot do a stick en route. Granted, in many cases it is not a genuinely critical patient, but is (should be) a trade mark skill of an EMT. However and like I said, this is a specific having nothing to do with, “it’s not my emergency, it’s theirs.”

 

[Justice]

I don’t know about you, but I am not an ambulance driver I am a medical provider. EMTs provide pre-hospital medical care, not just a quick ride to the hospital. With good assessment, you will know whether to stay and play or load and go.

As for the Medics who cannot leave scene until an IV is started, you have left the realm of generally speaking to a specific. In regard to this, I too have an issue with an EMT who cannot do a stick en route. Granted, in many cases it is not a genuinely critical patient, but is (should be) a trade mark skill of an EMT. However and like I said, this is a specific having nothing to do with, “it’s not my emergency, it’s theirs.”

Show me real life data that says "Stay and play" is any benefit to a patient.

"Stabalize and move" should be the only motto

 

[JPINFV]

Show me real life data that says "Stay and play" is any benefit to a patient.

"Stabalize and move" should be the only motto

What do you think "stabilizing" is. Sometimes it takes time, and not everything has to be done while rushing down the road code 3 because the paramedic didn't want to take a few minutes to set up CPAP on scene and stabilize the patient.

To quote another cliche, "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast."

"It's not my emergency" means don't get worked up. A paramedic having an emotional crisis because "it's an emergency" doesn't help anyone.

 

[JPINFV]

Dear God stay away from my family

Cool, stay away from mine.

I agree but perhaps I need to clairify. I am referring to speed as far as transports. 20yr might be willing to jump right back in the rig and knock out 10 more trips while the older worker MIGHT have the mentality of im here for x hours and I will not let them run me like a dog.

Strange, I've had more issues with my peers complaining about the number of runs and doing anything to not catch a run than the older EMTs. It's sad to say, but I do seriously question my generation's work ethic.

 

[EFDUnit823]

Show me real life data that says "Stay and play" is any benefit to a patient.

"Stabalize and move" should be the only motto

Not trying to sound condescending in any way, but how long have you been on an ambulance?

Stay and play or load and go are just simple terms used to describe the “mood” of the scene after you assess the patient. If you have a non-critical (no life threats) patient that can benefit from a more thorough “on-scene” intervention, then you can stay and play. Which simply means you can take a little more time doing a more thorough job. Obviously, having a critical patient with some form of life threatening risk, you’re load and go administering your interventions en route. Pretty simple really!

Just to give a very simple example, you are called to a 15 year old tachypneic female. Are you going to get on scene, throw her in the ambulance running Sig 10 back to the house? Or, do you think you may assess the situation, find it is anxiety, and decide to “stay and play” calming her down on scene?

 

[JPINFV]

Stay and play or load and go are just simple terms used to describe the “mood” of the scene after you assess the patient. If you have a non-critical (no life threats) patient that can benefit from a more thorough “on-scene” intervention, then you can stay and play.

I'd go further and add any life threats that can be properly mitigated on scene. There's no reason to go running down the street with lights and sirens because of a life threat that could be treated on scene.

 

[VCEMT]

I miss the days where newbs were only seen cleaning, doing skills, and not heard. Not like today. Where you see them sitting on their ***, working on iphone skills, and *****ing that they hate working. You tell them somethig, hoping to motivate 'em, they go hide until you're gone.

 

[EFDUnit823]

I'd go further and add any life threats that can be properly mitigated on scene. There's no reason to go running down the street with lights and sirens because of a life threat that could be treated on scene.

I agree, but wanted to stay away from specifics as everything is a case by case basis. An example is getting a good strip on a patient c/o chest pain. Few times have I left scene lights and sirens.

 

[Mlee81]

I miss the days where newbs were only seen cleaning, doing skills, and not heard. Not like today. Where you see them sitting on their ***, working on iphone skills, and *****ing that they hate working. You tell them somethig, hoping to motivate 'em, they go hide until you're gone.

Couldn't help but find the underlined amusing.

 

[FourLoko]

If I actually do something wrong I don't mind hearing about it. The problem is, at least in our IFT world, that it's all about the $$$.

If I'm too specific I might finally reveal my identity but when you're at a facility and your partner says the wrong thing (possibly sarcastic) to the guy who just so happens to have the owners phone number, proceeds to call said number while you're still standing there, you clear, are asked back to station and have to relay the whole story, are sent out to run calls with some other random partner and come back to find your partner kicked to the curb.

It's hostile when you can be replaced at the drop of a hat. No loyalty, nothing you can say or do to change that.

 

[Justice]

As always on this site we got way off topic.


If you read my first response I was reffering to IFT. When it comes to a 911 call then you have to asses each situation and treat it accordingly. however this has little to do with the thread or my point.


EMT/Medic in the eyes of a company owner is EMT makes me $$/ Medic makes me $$$$.

You do a 911, Pt care turned over to the hospital and now your putting the finishing touches on a run form. Dispatcher says ok we have a IFT or a 911 and I need you on it now.

Where I work you would have the guy with less then 5 years, drop what he is doing and take the next call. The 10+yr person more often then not will try and play the system (Call dispatch to claim decon, state the doc needs this run form etc)

This is not my point of view
But a Manager/Supervisor/Owner might just look at numbers and see the younger people in EMS making them more money and willing to do more with less arguing. Also the younger more then likely costs the company less, be it direct pay or vac time/benefits.

Look at how hostile and off topic this thread can get. :rofl:

 

[mycrofft]

So, sometimes "being bullied" is subjective?
Maybe.
But the first thing a true bully demands is your silence. "Grow a pair", or "You need a thicker skin" can be attempts to shame victims into silence. But also sometimes good advice...

I wonder how many times I accidentally bullied someone? (I know I did at least once; the person later was a family friend, told me I made her cry).