ResTech
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StevO... awesome point!
"High Schoolers and Heart Attacks..."
- Thread starter slawson
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Well they shouldn't! And only a public outcry or vote will ever change it!
I have worked in some very remote rural environments as a paid Paramedic. I'm sorry but in most cases the "we can't afford to pay our people or pay a Paramedic" is B.S. As Rid recently stated (and I have echoed on many occasions), you pay for water, electricity, your trash services, why not have to pay for EMS? Does your trash collector work for free? Unless he's doing community service probably not. I see this trend occuring more on the east coast where there is a high percentage of volunteer companies. There also seems to be a mindset that since people will volunteer their time, there is no need for a paid person, EMT or Paramedic. And while I do take my hat off to volunteers, in todays age and increase in need of professional pre-hospital emergency care, there is a proven need for additional full-time personnel. Most people cannot volunteer full-time, thus the issue. Until these archaic views are withdrawn from the picture, then there will always be a sub-optimal level of care in some areas, thus reducing any chance this industry ever has to establishing itself as medical professionals (this along with the crappy training we currently call our "EMS Education"). It can be done. It needs to be done. Convincing people that EMS is an evolving industry is the difficult part. Too many people set in their old ways..............
Again, just my humble opinion, perceive it as you deem necessary...........
I leave you with two questions......
1. If a child cannot make decisions regarding his/her own health and the care of, then should we allow them to make the decisions concerning someone else's?
2. Should a minor EMT make a decision that ultimately has a bad outcome, who will be held liable and responsible? A 16 y/o kid? Not likely in most courts..............
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FF/EMT Sam
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My county has what I consider to be the best mix of volunteer and paid systems. M-F, 6AM-6PM, selected stations are staffed with an ALS crew. During "off hours," i.e. M-F, 6PM-6AM and weekends, we have a paid paramedic for the county (its a very small county) to assist volunteer BLS or ALS crews as needed. We can even request off duty paid ALS providers in the case of an urgent emergency. This system preserves the volunteer system and saves the county money, while ensuring that adequate medical crews are just a phone call away, 24-7.
Funny that you should mention that, as we're going through quite a flap about kids making their own medical decisions in Virginia. See here for a summary of a law that Governor Kaine is expected to sign.
When I was running as an EMT before I turned 18, I could do anything within my protocols regardless of whether or not an EMT over the age of 18 was present. However, I could not serve as the official Attendant in Charge during a transport. If I had made a decision resulting in a bad patient outcome, both the AIC and I would have been called onto the carpet for it, and if it was proven that it was solely responsible for the error, I would have suffered the consequences.
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mrdell4150
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I do not think that high schoolers should be running the ems service in any town, but I do believe that any teenage/whatever age emt/medic, etc are entitled to an ubiased opinion until proven otherwords. Some can handle the situations and some cannot, but no one should categorize people like that ( I am one of them being 17 and in the squad). Most of the people have given me full respect, doing what I am allowed to do well and to the best of my ability. Others are not so open, and think that all cadets are useless and disinterested. If we weren't interested we wouldn't be there. I do agree that some are unfit for the job, but they need to be given a chance to prove themselves free of any previous prejudices and stereotypes one may have.
BossyCow
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At who's expense? The patient? The Supervisor? The cost of liability insurance for all of us?
Ridryder911
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My opinion is unbiased. I realize not all teenagers are created equal. As I stated, I started at age 14 in ER and EMS when I was 16 so I am quite aware of the differences now that I have a 17 year old daughter.
Unfortunately, the majority (not all or specific individual) make up are not able to make rationale and substantial crucial decisions. The same reason they are widely used in military as front line and to follow orders as directed. They are more at a task phase of life. This has been studied to death by impartial agencies such as insurance companies, educators, psychologist, etc..
Yes, some are exceptional and fortunately those usually pursue upwards and excel, while many others it takes time for maturity and development of the brain to be able to make rationale decision to occur.... sometimes many never do. Last year or so, they announced research describing the brain development after the age of 21-23 as being the "prime time" to understand complex and stressful events.
I applaud those that have interest in EMS and yes we elders in EMS should guide and be mentors for those by ensuring they will receive the proper education and have an outstanding profession, when they do enter EMS at the appropriate age.
R/r 911
Unfortunately, the majority (not all or specific individual) make up are not able to make rationale and substantial crucial decisions. The same reason they are widely used in military as front line and to follow orders as directed. They are more at a task phase of life. This has been studied to death by impartial agencies such as insurance companies, educators, psychologist, etc..
Yes, some are exceptional and fortunately those usually pursue upwards and excel, while many others it takes time for maturity and development of the brain to be able to make rationale decision to occur.... sometimes many never do. Last year or so, they announced research describing the brain development after the age of 21-23 as being the "prime time" to understand complex and stressful events.
I applaud those that have interest in EMS and yes we elders in EMS should guide and be mentors for those by ensuring they will receive the proper education and have an outstanding profession, when they do enter EMS at the appropriate age.
R/r 911
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First - Stevo - great post!
I started as an explorer at 14, and rode my first ambulance call when I was barely 16 years old. I am ALL FOR minors on ambulances, with SUPERVISION. Supervision, per the state, for a minor EMT, is supposed to be a "responsible" member of the service, at least 21 y/o, "within arm's reach" of the EMT (I was loose on my own on a few nasty MVA's at 16 and 17... my preceptors must have had REAL long arms). These rules may, or may not actually be rules vs. guidelines... but I think they are good practice for most situations. If I am the "Primary" EMT (Crew Chief) and a "secondary" EMT (not fully precepted... may, or may not, be 18 y/o) screws up... its MY fault. I'm the one who is in charge of the scene (medical-wise), absent a cheif officer from the squad or a medic... MY name is on the chart as being in charge. I've had some secondarys that I would trust and not really need to watch, but I've got to watch many of them and help them along.
I think that providing youth a constructive, productive outlet for their energy is a GREAT thing... it sure beats them hanging around on the street corner, waiting to shoot one another.
I started as an explorer at 14, and rode my first ambulance call when I was barely 16 years old. I am ALL FOR minors on ambulances, with SUPERVISION. Supervision, per the state, for a minor EMT, is supposed to be a "responsible" member of the service, at least 21 y/o, "within arm's reach" of the EMT (I was loose on my own on a few nasty MVA's at 16 and 17... my preceptors must have had REAL long arms). These rules may, or may not actually be rules vs. guidelines... but I think they are good practice for most situations. If I am the "Primary" EMT (Crew Chief) and a "secondary" EMT (not fully precepted... may, or may not, be 18 y/o) screws up... its MY fault. I'm the one who is in charge of the scene (medical-wise), absent a cheif officer from the squad or a medic... MY name is on the chart as being in charge. I've had some secondarys that I would trust and not really need to watch, but I've got to watch many of them and help them along.
I think that providing youth a constructive, productive outlet for their energy is a GREAT thing... it sure beats them hanging around on the street corner, waiting to shoot one another.
FF/EMT Sam
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It doesn't have to be at anyone's expense. If they're going to be supervised by an AIC, the AIC can keep an eye on them. If they're going to be the AIC themsekves, then the station will undoubtably supervise them until they're sure that they can do the job, just as they would keep an eye on a new EMT was was 40.
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Amen!
one of the things that young EMT's have against them is that they are NEW. If they aren't allowed to get their EMT until they are 18, or 21...then more years of experience are lost.
BossyCow
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We'll just have to agree to disagree.
I was 21 when i started in EMS. I worked for a private service and was trained by an EMT who was 18. Her parents owned the company and so she got her NREMT just days after she turned 18. She was not allowed to drive but did do alot of pt care. She is now about to turn 20. I've worked at two services since then one PRN and now a ALS service full time. I have to say she is a DAMN GOOD EMT. I have seen her give pt reports that have turned doctors heads. She has pictued up on AMI without ever looking at a 12 lead. She could do bls and some als care on me ANYDAY. She could hold her own with many "senior emts". She is just good at what she does.
I dont know how i feel bout the younger ones running code. I mean running emergency is a BIG responsibiliy, but i guess so is patient care.
I know this topic has somewhat been beat to death. Now would i want an 18 yr old paramedic.....i dont know. But kudo's to them if they can pass national reg at 18!!!
I dont know how i feel bout the younger ones running code. I mean running emergency is a BIG responsibiliy, but i guess so is patient care.
I know this topic has somewhat been beat to death. Now would i want an 18 yr old paramedic.....i dont know. But kudo's to them if they can pass national reg at 18!!!
chico.medic
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I'll tell you why. I was in Medic School when I was 19. I turned 20 the day of our final exam. I was 20 during my internship, and had been involved in EMS for about 2 years at that point. (Explorer and EMT-B.)
I think Rid would agree with me on this, but it takes a certain degree of life experience to be an effective public servant.:excl: Sure I could push atropine for bradycardia, and I could nasally intubate a respiratory pt. who was in failure, but How the hell was I suppose to persuade a WWII Vet that he needs to go to the hospital for his STEMI when he continually refuses care. How do I tell a mother that her child is still born? I had to do a lot of growing up real fast, and dealing with people is a huge part of this job. It's not enough to be a competent provider. You have to be a proverbial used car salesman too! You have to be compassionate, and persuasive, and comforting. How is a 16 year old going to calm someone’s anxiety after they just were pulled from the same vehicle that their spouse was just crushed beneath after being ejected. How is a 16 year old going to console someone when they ask, "Why not me? Why did it have to be my son/daughter/mother/husband?"
I struggled for quite awhile with my lack of life experience, and you know who suffered in the end? My patient’s! :unsure:
How are you going to feel when it’s you having the big one, and the same kid that was working at ‘Joe’s Taco’s and fish bait’ last week is now telling you to hold still because he’s going to, “Stick this big *** needle into your arm, cuz’ it’ll help ya!” <_<
I'm by no means trying to pass my self off as "all knowledgable". I've got 2 years under my belt and I have a whole career ahead of me to learn more and hone my skills. :blush: I just think that if I did not start too early, then I was darn close to that mark. Theres just somethings you have to wait to do until you grow up. Driving, Drinking (not at the same time), and entering peoples homes and placing yourself in a position where your the only person those people have to rely on between their and the ED.
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Good post Chico.
FF/EMT Sam
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How do any of us, regardless of age, do it? Darn if I know, but we manage. Some can manage it at a younger age than others can.
chico.medic
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I agree Sam, there are some very mature kids out there. I believe anyone able to step it up and enter the profession at a young age is very mature. I just think it's not a question of maturity, but interpersonal relations. Maturity is simply having reached an advanced stage of mental or emotional development characteristic of an adult. Mannerisms if you will.
I just think that regardless of maturity, a younger person is going to be a less effective provider, especially at an advanced level where they are expected not only to be a competent clinician, and diagnostician, but manage a scene and give confident direction to ancillary personnel. They simply don't have the life experience to be an effective leader. More than 50% of what we learn in school is obsolete only because no scenario in the field is going to be black and white. We live in a world that is comprised of so many shades of gray, I sometimes wonder who left the xerox on. It requires a certain advanced degree of critical thinking skills and common sense to make the majority of our calls successful.
They will also have to deal w/ an age bias, or ageism, from their patients, the families of those patients, and senior EMS, hospital, and fire personnel. Theres a sort of unspoken expectation for these people to "prove themselves." An elderly patient may be anxious to let someone 1/4 their age be responsible for their health and wellbeing.
There are always exceptions, and I don't wish to imply that I believe it CAN NOT be done, but if it does/has, then I truly believe the occurrence is rare. Further more, to assume that a company run entirely by high school age persons is going to be successful is naive and absurd (But that is only my IMHO.)
I just think that regardless of maturity, a younger person is going to be a less effective provider, especially at an advanced level where they are expected not only to be a competent clinician, and diagnostician, but manage a scene and give confident direction to ancillary personnel. They simply don't have the life experience to be an effective leader. More than 50% of what we learn in school is obsolete only because no scenario in the field is going to be black and white. We live in a world that is comprised of so many shades of gray, I sometimes wonder who left the xerox on. It requires a certain advanced degree of critical thinking skills and common sense to make the majority of our calls successful.
They will also have to deal w/ an age bias, or ageism, from their patients, the families of those patients, and senior EMS, hospital, and fire personnel. Theres a sort of unspoken expectation for these people to "prove themselves." An elderly patient may be anxious to let someone 1/4 their age be responsible for their health and wellbeing.
There are always exceptions, and I don't wish to imply that I believe it CAN NOT be done, but if it does/has, then I truly believe the occurrence is rare. Further more, to assume that a company run entirely by high school age persons is going to be successful is naive and absurd (But that is only my IMHO.)