Health Care Reform

[Melbourne MICA]

Everyone has probably had enough of mulling over this topic but I started a thread on Health Care issues quite awhile back - Nov 2008, well before Obama was elected. How does evryone feel about the reforms now looking back at the situation? I appreciate this is a loaded topic with some strong views so I hope it can be discussed civilly.

MM

 

[mycrofft]

It is still a "current events" deal, needing to spin out and down.

Interestingly, the issue has become a front for right-wing anti-government and racial hate groups.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124906766

 

[Bloom-IUEMT]

Honestly it's pretty watered-down, easy to swallow, sugar coated reform to appease the right. I have no idea (as in I have not been presented yet with a logical, well thought out argument) why people have gotten so upset over it. I'm interested to know what YOU think of it being that your home country has universal healthcare. Do you think it's odd that so many Americans are vehemently against reform? Do you (and your mates) think it's strange we don't view access to healthcare as a human right? Do you think it's strange we espouse the ideal of freedom but willingly allow our freedom to be stolen by business in the name of the free-market?

 

[MusicMedic]

Im really happy that this Healthcare reform passed, being uninsured for about 2 years,ive always been afraid that ill get in a car wreck and end up in the ER and not afford the bill afterwards.... there are plently of people in this situation including my Mom and Brother

Sure there is COBRA and other programs out there but it still costs about $300 a month for those programs (which is way too expensive for me)

Luckly i just got hired with an Ambulance company with Health Insurance so ill be eligible in about 60 days, but they dont cover my Family...

Another thing is, more Insured Americans= More People Calling 911 and More Hospital to Hospital Transports= More Jobs For us

P.S Bloom- Most Americans arnt opposed to this idea, its just the Republicans want you to think that they are... IMHO the Republican Party is really a thorn in the side of America

so way to go Democrats and Obama!!

 

[terrible one]

I'm interested in how they think they are going to pay for it. ESP since we are trillions of dollars in debt and in the worst recession since the great depression

 

[sunbee]

check out http://www.healthreform.gov/, it gives the breakdown of how healthcare will be financed in the upcoming years

like many, i agree that quality healthcare is a human right, but like every law/legislation, there's always oppositions and side-views but this time congress and president came together and fought for us

 

[terrible one]

Does it also explain how it won't become bankrupt like the majority of other government prgrams I.e. Social security, Medicare, or the USPS? I'm all for healthcare reform but Im very skeptical of this bill, ESP with the governments track record of saying one thing and doing another.

 

[karaya]

Im really happy that this Healthcare reform passed, being uninsured for about 2 years,ive always been afraid that ill get in a car wreck and end up in the ER and not afford the bill afterwards.... there are plently of people in this situation including my Mom and Brother

Sure there is COBRA and other programs out there but it still costs about $300 a month for those programs (which is way too expensive for me)

Luckly i just got hired with an Ambulance company with Health Insurance so ill be eligible in about 60 days, but they dont cover my Family...

Another thing is, more Insured Americans= More People Calling 911 and More Hospital to Hospital Transports= More Jobs For us

P.S Bloom- Most Americans arnt opposed to this idea, its just the Republicans want you to think that they are... IMHO the Republican Party is really a thorn in the side of America

so way to go Democrats and Obama!!

So you didn't buy insurance for two years? What has changed for you now that this legislation has passed? Do you think you are going to get something for free or cheaper? There is NO public option in this legislation. NONE. Soon you will be FORCED to purchase insurance or face fines by the IRS. Those who cannot afford insurance will be moved to Medicaid whereby 13 million more people will enter the Medicaid system under the new legislation. This is the best part... the States will have to bear the cost of the additional people entering Medicaid. Yes, that means California, which is already broke, will have one of the highest costs in the nation to contribute to Medicaid. Where is that money going to come from? Can you say more TAXES??

And your analogy that more people on insurance will call 911 more. Who are the biggest abusers of 911? The economically disadvantaged and uninsured. So now millions of them will enter into Medicaid. When you get hired by your new EMS employer, ask them how much their service gets reimbursed from Medicaid. Yeah, its that small.

Notice how many times I used the word insurance? That's because this is not healthcare reform. It's insurance reform.

This is what kills me about this legislation. Too many people, such as yourself, no nothing about it.

 

[MusicMedic]

So you didn't buy insurance for two years? What has changed for you now that this legislation has passed? Do you think you are going to get something for free or cheaper? There is NO public option in this legislation. NONE. Soon you will be FORCED to purchase insurance or face fines by the IRS. Those who cannot afford insurance will be moved to Medicaid whereby 13 million more people will enter the Medicaid system under the new legislation. This is the best part... the States will have to bear the cost of the additional people entering Medicaid. Yes, that means California, which is already broke, will have one of the highest costs in the nation to contribute to Medicaid. Where is that money going to come from? Can you say more TAXES??

And your analogy that more people on insurance will call 911 more. Who are the biggest abusers of 911? The economically disadvantaged and uninsured. So now millions of them will enter into Medicaid. When you get hired by your new EMS employer, ask them how much their service gets reimbursed from Medicaid. Yeah, its that small.

Notice how many times I used the word insurance? That's because this is not healthcare reform. It's insurance reform.

This is what kills me about this legislation. Too many people, such as yourself, no nothing about it.

I couldnt Buy Insurance because I COULD NOT AFFORD IT! even for a single 21 year old, sure the insurance premiums wouldnt be too high, but im not really making the big bucks... Note that i was working full time (and going to school) My employer would not pay for Insurance...

This bill would make Government Subsidies that would help people who make under $88,000(for a family of four) a year to pay for their Insurance..... sure it might not cover ALL of the costs but it would still pay for some of it..

The bill would also make it mandatory for Employers with 50 or more people to provide up to %60 of the cost of the Health Insurance Premiums... which in my case my past employer would have to pitch in to get us health insurance... Which is a nice piece of mind since we have asked the company repeated times to help us with Insurance and they kept on putting it off

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH/03/25/health.care.law.basics/index.html?hpt=C2

Sure it might be more Insurance Reform than Healthcare, Sure the laws could have been written better, Sure there could have been a few more things. Sure we are gonna have to Cut Spending, and Sure we are gonna have to raise taxes to pay for it... but its better than CUTTING Taxes and increasing taxes (Bush Tax Cut's and the Wars) Sure this goverment or congress isnt perfect but what Government is?

So please, dont ASSUME i dont know anything

Thank you

 

[TraprMike]

there are plently of people in this situation including my Mom and Brother

!!

and so, now your Mom and brother will have to buy insurance. If they don't, the IRS will impose a fine of 1% of there years income or $95 whichever is higher...

good luck with your Obamacare....
time for another tea party

 

[reaper]

Im really happy that this Healthcare reform passed, being uninsured for about 2 years,ive always been afraid that ill get in a car wreck and end up in the ER and not afford the bill afterwards.... there are plently of people in this situation including my Mom and Brother

Sure there is COBRA and other programs out there but it still costs about $300 a month for those programs (which is way too expensive for me)

Luckly i just got hired with an Ambulance company with Health Insurance so ill be eligible in about 60 days, but they dont cover my Family...

Another thing is, more Insured Americans= More People Calling 911 and More Hospital to Hospital Transports= More Jobs For us

P.S Bloom- Most Americans arnt opposed to this idea, its just the Republicans want you to think that they are... IMHO the Republican Party is really a thorn in the side of America
so way to go Democrats and Obama!!

Really? There are multiple independent polls out there that showed over 60% of the general public did not want this bill to pass. But hey, we don't need a government that does what the people want!

This was a watered down bill that was passed only for one reason. So someone could say that the change has come!

 

[bstone]

Really? There are multiple independent polls out there that showed over 60% of the general public did not want this bill to pass. But hey, we don't need a government that does what the people want!

The numbers were the same when blacks were beeing freed from slavery and there were MUCH higher numbers in the South when schools were being desegregated.

 

[FireResuce48]

I'm gonna reply to the political part of this first.

This is not a Republic vs. Democrat issue.
This has turned into a Goverment vs. the People issue.

The majority did not want this and there elected officials did not represent them. The Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats. They are the same. A bunch of liars who do not represent us and really don't care.

On the health care issue. I'm not happy that it is here. I can't support something that nobody knows about. When a politician says we need to pass something to find out what is in it that throws a big red flag up.

 

[TraprMike]

Really? There are multiple independent polls out there that showed over 60% of the general public did not want this bill to pass. But hey, we don't need a government that does what the people want!

This was a watered down bill that was passed only for one reason. So someone could say that the change has come!

if so many people want this, why is it there are 30some states that are suing the .gov over this??

they got change all right.. :sad:

****
but hey,, I didn't come here to talk politics.. i do that on other boards,,
I come here to learn about ems/emt stuff... we can :deadhorse: this to death.

 

[Melbourne MICA]

Carefully

Honestly it's pretty watered-down, easy to swallow, sugar coated reform to appease the right. I have no idea (as in I have not been presented yet with a logical, well thought out argument) why people have gotten so upset over it. I'm interested to know what YOU think of it being that your home country has universal healthcare. Do you think it's odd that so many Americans are vehemently against reform? Do you (and your mates) think it's strange we don't view access to healthcare as a human right? Do you think it's strange we espouse the ideal of freedom but willingly allow our freedom to be stolen by business in the name of the free-market?

I was perhaps a little naive and it was ill-timed on my part to reopen this issue. There seems to be a lot of partisan emotion running and I certainly don't want to be the cause of turning forum members or anyone else against each other.

However, since Bloom has asked me specifically what I think as an outsider I will make these I hope, measured remarks.

In a nutshell, I think most Australians don't see what all the fuss is about. However we are deeply unsettled, disturbed and even saddened to witness how the debate in the US has become so spiteful, antagonistic, even hateful.

Personally, I can't fathom where all the hate, and there is no other word for it, has come from. Some of the claims, accusations and descriptions I have seen on my TV screen just defy comprehension.

And without wanting to start a cat calling diatribe against myself and any other "outsider", I is my impression the bulk of the nastiest stuff has come from opponents of the health care reforms.

I saw footage of a middle aged guy at one of the tea parties holding a billboard that had your Presidents picture painted over with both Nazi and Communist symbols, his face painted over the text underneath saying words to the effect of "Obama is a communist lacky and a fascist dog". (This is a preposterous contradiction of ideologies to describe one person or group).

And his wasn't the only billboard, sign or poster along those lines. As for some of the verbal remarks I've seen and heard (the Internet makes the world a very small place) - they are unrepeatable and terrifying.

And very few of them have anything to do with fact, compromise, conciliation or otherwise more temperate, if spirited and robust debate on the issue.

Fear is the only word that comes to mind.

I cannot fathom what the hell is going on in the US to produce such loathing.

If Karaya is reading, he'll recall how he chastised me gently for suggesting when I wrote on health care in this forum back in 2008, there were certain groups/entities/political organisations/underground whatevers who were (historically) happy to spread the idea (to create fear), particularly during political or election campaigns, that the "socialists" were trying to take over America covertly, by using legislation or by other means.

I was happy for him to tell me that was not the case at the time and that the vast majority of Americans didn't feel that way.

I hope moderate voices ultimately prevail because your country can ill afford to be divided or dominated by extremism. Isn't' that what a lot of our soldiers are currently fighting against and paying for with their lives?

History has an unpleasant tendency to repeat itself. If america goes that way we all lose - even here in Australia.

MM

 

[bstone]

if so many people want this, why is it there are 30some states that are suing the .gov over this??

That would be 13, all but one Republican

 

[karaya]

The numbers were the same when blacks were beeing freed from slavery and there were MUCH higher numbers in the South when schools were being desegregated.

And just what does racial hatred and desegregation have to do with the insurance reform legislation? Nothing!! Just another way to paint reform dissenters into the same league as racial bigots. Please, I've heard this very comparison being used before and it's just another way to promote a bias agenda.

 

[bstone]

And just what does racial hatred and desegregation have to do with the insurance reform legislation? Nothing!! Just another way to paint reform dissenters into the same league as racial bigots. Please, I've heard this very comparison being used before and it's just another way to promote a bias agenda.

Health care is a human and civil right, just like being a free person and going to school.

 

[Hal9000]

I was perhaps a little naive and it was ill-timed on my part to reopen this issue. There seems to be a lot of partisan emotion running and I certainly don't want to be the cause of turning forum members or anyone else against each other.

...

History has an unpleasant tendency to repeat itself. If america goes that way we all lose - even here in Australia.

MM

Let me help you with my opinion. First, it is a spotlight fallacy to view your news and then assign an attribute to a group of people who oppose the legislation. That's a very common error.

Second, yes there is hate in some places, disgust in others, outrage in many, etc. However, it's not as if hundreds of Americans are killing hundreds of Americans over this. Our society is very forceful and direct, as just about any and all intercultural communications classes will discuss. Most view freedom of speech very highly. Those who are racist should be allowed to say all the hateful things they wish, as it clearly exposes them, and their arguments can then be summarily ignored. There's no sense making the wasp flying around invisible.

Regarding the issue of socialism, it doesn't help when key Democrats are quoted as saying, "When American voted for Obama, they voted for socialism." And yes, this healthcare legislation is designed to redistribute wealth, as Max Baucus said.

Healthcare is indeed in need of reform, but this "reform" does not accomplish what is needed. The problem with our healthcare is the cost of it, or, in a better description, the value of it.

The problem involves the fact that that there are so many different rates. Medical procedures don't have a foundational value. Call a provider and ask them what a procedure costs; they'll ask what insurance you carry. And if you don't have insurance? Not good for the providers if it's emergency care.

A massive part of the problem is that many Americans don't see medical care as having concrete value, and rightly so. It's either something they can pay for, or something they can't. No one gets competing offers or shops around; insurance companies "compete" in secrecy, which is to say, they don't really compete at all.

A huge problem involves the following: My patients with good insurance want every procedure they can get, because "it doesn't cost me anything; it's free." Without any copay, the care is further devalued. What is amazing is that the cost of our mostly insurance-covered, technology-based procedures have risen with age! Where else does that happen? It doesn't happen in any other sector, because the equipment needed becomes better, more efficient, and cheaper. When "someone else" is always paying, cost-conscious decisions go out the window. We need to reform the value, so that the cost of procedures goes down. Instead, we pathetically address a symptom, but leave the cancer to spread. It's tragic. It's also tragic that people, burdened by medical costs, have fallen for the legislation which proclaims to be scientific, when it is indeed based more upon rampant emotionalism and the woes of the masses.

We need reform, but we need an open, competitive system, not the futhering of this anguine beast, struggling to move in the end under the avoirdupois brought about by its voluminous, unhelpful rules.

I should also add that efficient systems reduce costs overall, while systems which have proclivities to expand also show a bent toward exceeding cost analyses. For this reason, we should be seeking a true reform of value, which this does not address, nor make any significant inroads toward doing so.

It is also worth noting that the CBO has consistently underestimated the costs of medicine, and by amounts which are large indeed. Let me present these small exhibits of their major healthcare-related estimates:
-Medicare (hospital insurance). Originally estimated to be $9 billion annually by 1990; actual cost was $67 billion.
- Medicare program. Originally estimated to be $12 billion/year by 1990; actual was $110 billion.... See more... See more
-Medicaid DSH. Originally estimated to be less than $1 billion/year; actual cost in excess of $17 billion/year.
-Medicare home benefit. $4 billion/year versus actual of $10 billion/year.

Now, I do take issue with using past estimate histories to accurately argue current facts, so consider those as more of a point of interest. What does remain true, however, is that we currently spend vastly more than other countries on healthcare, yet we achieve less with that money. We are hoping to correct this by spending more money, which we estimate will put us right around the breaking even point, at least according to the CBO.

So, unfortunately, we are not addressing the value of healthcare, and we are not making inroads toward becoming more efficient. Many people are advocating in the extreme on either side due to partisan interests, which are merely a result, I believe, of our need to psychologically ingroup with a particular unit. This can been seen when we cheer for one team over another, when the tangible connection in tenuous at best. Will we ever overcome this, or will politicians remain readily able to access our frail psyches, garnering votes even when they lie, cheat, and remain unethical in so many facets?

The legislation is really this mish-mash, pseudo-socialistic, pseudo-capitalistic quagmire of rules. It subtly purports its scientific roots while polarizing many peoples. In actuality, it burdens us more, and it is not at all what it claims to be.

I think that addressing the above is a long, hard process, just like many other things in life. However, it's also the most realistic way to achieve what you want, and it address the underlying causes of expensive medicine, not just the symptoms. As I've said, though, we spend a lot of money without seeing the appropriate returns, because our system of valuation is broken.

On a quick note, if the SCOTUS says that the legislation does not violate the 10th Amendment, I am willing to bet that the supporting argument is going to be the Interstate Commerce Clause. However, many Americans simply do not agree with the underlying concept that they can be forced to purchase health insurance. Some have argued, both on the Hill and in private, that it is akin to purchasing car insurance, which it is most certainly not. Our roads are financed by the people, and others travel on them. This means that not only is it a privilege, but some of the actions taken can impact other people, which is one reason for the insurance. Our lives, however, are our own, and are not paid for by the government, so the argument is very dissimilar.

Some other points of interest are present, as well. Firstly, this bill will not insure everyone, and will most likely not bring down premiums significantly. Also, as said, it does not address the cost of healthcare, but the cost of insurance, and that is barely theoretically tangible. Furthermore, the bill was loaded with unrelated pork. Americans don't like pork all that much.

Some more interesting notes:
-The bill doesn't have an enforcement mechanism to keep people from being dropped from coverage due to illness. I suppose that this part of the bill is being left to the states.
-Some smaller businesses will save money by taking a penalty for not providing insurance, rather than buying a reasonable package.
-The bill does not limit private insurers' rate increases.
-The bill requires funding immediately, but is not fully active for years; this has greatly skewed the CBO number, which also assumes that people will purchase select packages. As noted before, the CBO routinely botches estimates for healthcare; it is doubtful that the thousands of pages of legislation will work out as predicted.
-Having insurance DOES NOT prevent medical-related bankruptcy. In fact, the vast majority of the medically bankrupt have insurance-around 3/4, IIRC.
-Between 24 and 54 million will be left uninsured by 2019. This is a CBO figure, as well.


Is it any wonder, then, that some do not enjoy this huge amount of legislation? I daresay it is not.

 

[Hal9000]

Health care is a human and civil right, just like being a free person and going to school.

No, it is not. I have a skill for which I have worked, and an education for which I have worked. If I am required to provide it to another, then my time and person are being infringed upon. For example, if there were only two people, and one of them could learn medicine, is it right to make him do so and provide services to the other person? No, it is not.

It is a right to live to the fullest without being infringed upon and to seek out the best healthcare one can find. It is NOT a right to make a certain segment of people provide one with a right. Rights cannot be so provided.

Also, your clause made absolutely no analogous sense.