Getting EMT-B cert for Firefighting?

[Veneficus]

It's funny reading all the different opinions on this topic, as it reminds me of listening to politicians and how they always take the side of their party. We all think the system we work in is the best. I haven't read any posts from someone saying I work in Fire Based and it sucks, or vice versa with privates? I'm not bashing anyone, hell... I'm guilty of it myself. It's just funny how we all spend so much time trying to make our points and convince others to agree with our contention when in the end we are all loyal to the systems we work in.

I was working at a FD when I discovered something was wrong. I then went to another FD where it was even worse. During my third FD employment (whch actually valued EMS), I became of the mind that despite carrying the party line for years, something needed to change.

I have since encountered other former firefighters (most of whom are now physicians, and a handful serving in medical only capacities both in hospital and teaching organizations) that noticed the same thing.

I have even worked private and 3rd service EMS. I am not supporting one system over another. I am striving for the best system, who provides it is inconsequential. But in order to get there it will take certain things. Which will need to be done in a certain order.

In my experience and research, the fire service is the largest opponent of change. Which is not only for the better, but without it puts both fire and EMS at the risk of becomming obsolete. (happy to discuss specifics anytime)

I support any agency wishing to advance the cause. The trouble is the fire service seems to be led by a bunch of people who don't want to admit change must happen. They spout propaganda and like history has always done, eventually the truth will come out.

Some of the fire services most distinguished leaders are driving it to a cliff with EMS. I hope the rank and file will not go over like lemmings, but it is in their hands, not mine. I can only point out the cliff and how to change course.

If you deny there are problems, whether fire based, private, public, 3rd service, whatever; it is like denying the Americans are invading Iraq as our tanks roll through the streets. (you remember that Iraqi information minister under Sadaam doing that!)

There are countless examples in literature as well.

I suspect I get through to some and not others. But I will continue to try.

 

[MrBrown]

Veneficus makes a good point; I do not have a preference as to one system over the other either. Medic One can continue to be intergrated with the Fire Departments of King and Whatcom Counties for as long as ever because they do a good job of it. Likewise, if Austin Travis County EMS in Texas continues to be a good third service agency, let them be a third service agency forever and a day.

The Fire Service seems to be the biggest pusher of low standards and resisting change because they simply have the largest finger in the pie.

Oregon requires at least a two year Degree to become a Paramedic, how many Fire based EMS systems are out there in Oregon?

I have experience in two of our services here (we only have 4 nationwide) and the difference between the two is amazing simply because one embraces change and forward thinking.

 

[Radioactive]

Why is Fire based EMS used nowhere else in the world except the US if it works so well?

The United states does most things better than any other countries???! I wouldn't be using that arguement to make your point!

I just want to point out that this response is spectacular. I very well may be using it as my sig.

 

[MrBrown]

Why is Fire based EMS used nowhere else in the world except the US if it works so well?

The United states does most things better than any other countries???! I wouldn't be using that arguement to make your point!

I can't figure out if you're being serious or making a joke.

If you actually mean that then you're a moron.

 

[Radioactive]

It was certianly a joke. The grammar by itself is laughable. Sometimes I forget that sarcasm doesn't translate well in text. Maybe I shoulda used the proper [sarcasm on/off] denotation.

 

[triemal04]

Are you suggesting that the IAFF and IAFC and by extension all the advocates of fire based EMS should be able to spout their utter lies and total BS as fact because nobody can prove them wrong even though they cannot prove it themselves?
Absolutely not. I'm not absolving anyone of their responsibilities to prove what they say. Just that, if you are going to say that someone is wrong, you should be able to show why they are wrong. And the bolded portion...that's pathetic. I'm sorry, but you should be smarter than that. Neither of those 2 unions set's policy for individual dept's, neither enforces anything for the fire service, and neither "set's a course" so to speak, for the fire service.

As far as I am aware in science, you cannot prove a negative. So that is a very boased argument that it cannot be proven wrong.
That is the worst kind of copout there is! Crap, think about what you just said. "I'm right, you're wrong, but I can't prove it, but that doesn't change anything." Damn! You can do better than that. I mean...do you want ME to list out the areas where the fire-service model fails at EMS? It's very easy to do, and I'd be happy to do it since you don't seem able to.

Let's talk about reporting numbers for a minute.

Why aren't FDs using the Utstein template? Why are they not responding to requests for their numbers?

Are they going to adopt the new AHA reporting system? are they going to Publish their numbers?
Uh...is anyone else? (the answer to that is no, the vast majority of all types of services are NOT collecting that info using that criteria, and many aren't collecting it at all. Some are though.). What's good for the goose is good for the gander; if you are going to attempt to use this to prove that an entire model fails, then you had best use it for EVERYONE. And...look at the USA Today numbers again. You should be aware that several private, hospital-based and third service agencies were also not able to report their numbers, or were unwilling. Since you seem to be so focused on numbers, then try this on: third-service and hospital based make up the smallest number of transporting agencies, so, going by the numbers, that would indicate that a larger percentage of them are failing to collect appropriate data. Guess that means they are causing issue's with EMS more than fire in this case.

I have to ask myself, one of the agencies that employs me reports their numbers all over the news. (of course it is a hospital)Have you ever noticed the Seattle area never fails to report their numbers? Why do you think that is?

Because their numbers are great. They are something to brag about, not hide.
Have you ever noticed that almost every service doesn't report their numbers? Come on...so far each one of your responses has been a hollow argument. You can do much better than that.

If the Fire service was truly interested in advancing medical care, why wouldn't they mandate a publically available standardized reporting system?
Very good question actually. But...if non-fire services are doing so great, then where is the push by them, and more importantly, where is the SUPPORT BY THEM for such a thing?

Could it be they know they really suck and don't want anyone to find out?
Could be. More likely it's the fact that there is no one governing body for fire dept's nationwide, just as there isn't for any service type. Sorry, once again, that's a failed and hollow argument.

In my home state a mandatory reporting system was established. (most of the state is Fire based EMS, in fact we could count on one hand the 911 agencies that aren't. They accepted the system on the caviat it would not be made public and was only for internal record keeping. They went as far as to sue to keep it private when medical officials going over the records wanted to divulge the numbers in order to force departments to change. (I am told by a doctor who saw them the numbers were abysmal)
That's pretty bad, I won't lie, and really, unforgivable. But this represents more than that one dept...how?

Look at the recent legislation put forth in the state of LA. Why would a fire service suggest they should not be held accountable to the state agency overseeing EMS? Perhaps the regulatory agency was being too hard on them? No organization in any industry that is of quality fears an oversight body. Most can't wait to host them so they can brag about the results.

Bottom line:

The fire service bodies brag how great they are. Challenge people to the impossible scientific task of proving them wrong. Use very poor studies to demonstrate they are correct. Fight to not use or report recognized medical reporting standards.
Impossible? Are you kidding me? Once again, would you like me to give you actual examples of how the fire-service model doesn't work and where it is failing EMS? It's not that hard to do.

Why would you do any of that unless you suck and need to hide it?

This is getting ridiculous. Very little you have said is accurate, or provable beyond an anecdotal level, or applicable to an entire system. If you want change, you need to show why change is needed! It's a simple concept. And it's doable in this case.

My whole point in getting into this thread was to point out that to many people subscribe to the "bogeyman theory" when it comes to the fire-service. It would seem you do too. You keep saying that you don't like one service over another, and yet, only point out perceived flaws in one, while refusing to accept that these flaws are not systemic, and that there is no one body that sets policy for the fire service. (the best you've done is point out what the IAFC and IAFF have said since they can affect policy at that national level, and yes, some of what they do is very problematic.) You want to talk about problems with EMS...let's look at other services. Who is it that runs NCTI, a notorious patch-factory with multiple locations? Who is it that pays people horrible wages with little to no benefits/retirement? Who is that does very little in the way of background checks? Who is it that seems to always make the news for a medic assaulting/sexually abusing a pt? Who is that refuses to spend money lobbying for medicare reform for ambulance reimbursement? Who is it that has little to no career advancement? Who is it that only wants people to be employed for 5 or so years? Do you want me to keep going?

I'll freely admit that the fire-service model has some problems and bears some of the responsibility for the shape EMS is in (once again, do you want ME to point out the ways that's happened?), but as the only offender, or even the majority offender...please, use you head and look objectively at the entire system.

 

[triemal04]

Why is Fire based EMS used nowhere else in the world except the US if it works so well?

Why have both the New Zealand Fire Service and the New Zealand Professional Firefighters Union vigorously fought so hard to not to medical runs, stating it is not in the interest of either profession?

Look at Firefighter/Paramedics in Washington DC, how many lawsuits and new items have they had recently about substandard patient care.... hmm

What about the recent spate of "dead people" who werent really dead; most of them were from Fire based EMS systems; Arizona, Arkansas, Maryland ....

The scientific evidence just does not exist to prove either of us right.

Is the Fire Service 100% to blame for piss poor EMS? No, are they the worst ... probably.

Dear MrBrown;

Thank you for your interest in American EMS. It's heartening to know that people from other countries are aware of the poor shape it's in and are concerned with what the future holds.

Unfortunately, you continue to make it very clear with every post that you do not full understand the current situation, how this situation was reached, the problems faced, root causes of those problems, or what the problems with certain service-models are.

Until you are able to clearly understand and articulate these things, or even refute the responses to your previous attempts, it would probably be better for you to remove yourself from this conversation and avoid any embarrassment.

Thank you,

A Concerned Citizen.

 

[triemal04]

It's funny reading all the different opinions on this topic, as it reminds me of listening to politicians and how they always take the side of their party. We all think the system we work in is the best. I haven't read any posts from someone saying I work in Fire Based and it sucks, or vice versa with privates? I'm not bashing anyone, hell... I'm guilty of it myself. It's just funny how we all spend so much time trying to make our points and convince others to agree with our contention when in the end we are all loyal to the systems we work in.

Um...me? I haven't said that it sucks, but I'll be the first to admit that there are problems with the way it's run that affect almost every dept in the nation, and the first to admit that the fire-service does bear it's share of responsibility for the current state of EMS.

Edit:

Oregon requires at least a two year Degree to become a Paramedic, how many Fire based EMS systems are out there in Oregon?

Hmmm...another failure at understanding and knowing what the situation is. The majority of transporting agencies in Oregon are fire-based. With few exceptions, the career dept's that provide a first responce capability provide a paramedic level service (needed or not). Failed again, eh brown?

 

[Veneficus]

e pluribus unum

Absolutely not. I'm not absolving anyone of their responsibilities to prove what they say. Just that, if you are going to say that someone is wrong, you should be able to show why they are wrong

I provided the links, The doctor who responded by video I thought covered it quite well. He used published data to refute exactly what they claimed. I don’t think anyone could demonstrate to you anything that would change your defense of the propaganda.

. And the bolded portion...that's pathetic. I'm sorry, but you should be smarter than that. Neither of those 2 unions set's policy for individual dept's, neither enforces anything for the fire service, and neither "set's a course" so to speak, for the fire service.

I am not sure why you think the bolded statement is pathetic. Both Mr. Brown and I have linked to and spelled out quite well the positions of the ignorant labor union leadership. I even supplied a link to how much their political action committees have spent over the years lobbying their position. If you think the IAFF and IAFC doesn’t influence the decision makers of respective departments who may be members, you may need to travel some more outside the backwater of the Pacific Northwest.

That is the worst kind of copout there is! Crap, think about what you just said. "I'm right, you're wrong, but I can't prove it, but that doesn't change anything." Damn! You can do better than that. I mean...do you want ME to list out the areas where the fire-service model fails at EMS? It's very easy to do, and I'd be happy to do it since you don't seem able to.

I really don’t see how trying to scientifically prove a negative concept is a cop out? But of course you are free to list why you think the fire service model fails at EMS. But would it be anything more than your anecdotes? Please don’t post something about response times or some other nonsense measurement though. It hurts both my eyes and my head

Uh...is anyone else? (the answer to that is no, the vast majority of all types of services are NOT collecting that info using that criteria, and many aren't collecting it at all. Some are though.)

I didn’t say nobody else wasn’t to blame for not using or reporting standard data. But I also didn’t see a video by advocates of private, third service, or hospital based EMS trying to put out propaganda on why their system is superior.

. What's good for the goose is good for the gander; if you are going to attempt to use this to prove that an entire model fails, then you had best use it for EVERYONE. And...look at the USA Today numbers again. You should be aware that several private, hospital-based and third service agencies were also not able to report their numbers, or were unwilling.

You should read my statement again where I said that agencies who can be proud of their numbers do show them off. It was not exclusive.

Since you seem to be so focused on numbers, then try this on: third-service and hospital based make up the smallest number of transporting agencies, so, going by the numbers, that would indicate that a larger percentage of them are failing to collect appropriate data.

Do I understand you correctly? You say that third service and hospital based services make up the smallest number of agencies (which I don’t doubt) but that the fire service model which makes up a majority of US agencies doesn’t cause most of the problems? I am not sure I understand your logic.

Guess that means they are causing issue's with EMS more than fire in this case.

Colorful. A minority group of agencies causing more problems than the majority when engaged in the same behavior?

Have you ever noticed that almost every service doesn't report their numbers? Come on...so far each one of your responses has been a hollow argument. You can do much better than that.

I have noticed that most do not report their numbers. I stand by what I said, those who don’t must have something to hide.

Very good question actually. But...if non-fire services are doing so great, then where is the push by them, and more importantly, where is the SUPPORT BY THEM for such a thing?

By your own argument, these non fire services are a minority, who cannot or do not spend the money that the fire service could. I am quite sure if those advocating for the fire service spent more time pushing for standards and less time trying to compare EMS effectiveness with fire suppression response times, the minority would be compelled to follow the majority standards.

Could be. More likely it's the fact that there is no one governing body for fire dept's nationwide, just as there isn't for any service type. Sorry, once again, that's a failed and hollow argument.

I don’t think you understand what I am getting at or are in denial. A political action group is not a governing body. I did not suggest they were. However, such organized lobbying affects policy at all levels, not just federal. Perhaps you should try to more thoroughly understand how labor unions and professional associations wield their power. In fact since Poland is in the news, perhaps it should be pointed out that it was a labor union action that brought down the socialist government in the 80’s. For a body that isn’t governing body (which would be a guild) that is some significant power and influence. In political circles I think it is termed “mob rule.”

That's pretty bad, I won't lie, and really, unforgivable. But this represents more than that one dept...how?

Your question is: How does the data submitted by every EMS agency in the state represent more than one department?

 

[Veneficus]

but wait there's more...

My whole point in getting into this thread was to point out that to many people subscribe to the "bogeyman theory" when it comes to the fire-service. It would seem you do too. You keep saying that you don't like one service over another, and yet, only point out perceived flaws in one.

I am afraid a bunch of ignorant vocational laborers do not instill enough fear in me to subscribe to a “bogeyman theory.” I have stated in this thread and others that I think fixing the problems manifested in the fire service is the toughest challenge and will have the greatest impact. Are you suggesting that systemic EMS problems can be solved by singling out the minority agencies and forcing the majority fire service EMS agencies (often a municipal) to comply with the standards of private industry? could we then demand the same burden of proof to successfully sue a private corperation as a municiple governemt?

Who is it that runs NCTI, a notorious patch-factory with multiple locations?

Were it not for a political coalition of volunteer services and the IAFF non accredited “patch factories” would not exist. Have you forgotten who lobbied to maintain vocational classification of EMS as well as holding down educational requirements? In fact, the fabled National Fire Academy is not accredited education. How embarrassing. The industry leaders can’t go to college.

Who is it that pays people horrible wages with little to no benefits/retirement?

EMS providers outside the fire service are paid commensurate with their education and therefore value to society. It is only Unionized fire service laborers who can hold a government hostage and demand pay in excess of their value in the provision of service (EMS or otherwise). Tell me, what is the average pay in any other industry for a laborer with a GED or high school diploma and approximately 1000 hours of vocational training? Certainly not anywhere close to that of a fireman.

Who is that does very little in the way of background checks?

What has this got to do with anything? All a background check proves is a person hasn’t been caught doing anything in the past. It is not predictive of behavior, ability, or integrity. Not to mention it also prohibits redemption. In the city of Cleveland, Ohio, a serial rapist passed all checks, was hired, and employed by the fire department for 10 years before he was prosecuted and convicted. Many of his victims testified in court that they didn’t come forward because they feared the word of such an upstanding member of the community would be believed over their accusations. This anecdote aside, how many people in the fire service have you witnessed behave in a manner that would not be acceptable of the general public because “they are special?” How often are they terminated for such behaviors?

Who is it that seems to always make the news for a medic assaulting/sexually abusing a pt?

I might ask who is it that abuses patients and doesn’t make the news? Even when the abuse does make the news regularly like in DC, the discipline is rather minor.

Who is that refuses to spend money lobbying for medicare reform for ambulance reimbursement?

Good question. Certainly not private transport services.

Who is it that has little to no career advancement?

A factory laborer, a mechanic, a plumber, a mason, a carpenter, private EMS, a teamster, and every other vocational laborer who cannot exploit their government employer.

Who is it that only wants people to be employed for 5 or so years?

That is a fine question too. But I am not sure it is entirely accurate. Many non Fire EMS agencies go to considerable lengths to attract and retain quality employees. But I stipulate that many of the more desirable employees move on to true professional status in other related fields. Similar to how somebody can put themselves through school to become an architect as a carpenter. Perhaps you are arrogant enough to believe that a firefighter is somehow more special than any other type of vocational laborer? Because of what? The danger of the work? Not as dangerous as fishing or mining.

Do you want me to keep going?

Please, by all means. I’d love to hear how a firefighter is such a superior human being compared to all the other mere mortals of the laboring class.

I'll freely admit that the fire-service model has some problems and bears some of the responsibility for the shape EMS is in (once again, do you want ME to point out the ways that's happened?), but as the only offender, or even the majority offender...please, use you head and look objectively at the entire system.

Use yours. Fix the minority offenders and everything will magically be fixed over at the FD? How do you plan to fix the systemic problems with EMS when a politically active mob spreads “bogeyman” propaganda about response times, the cost of educating their medical providers, the sky is falling, the end of the world is coming and we are going to save you from it if you have what we deem “a real emergency” agencies? Magic, prayer, or closing your eyes clicking your heels together 3 times and saying "there's nothing like the fire service"?

Um...me? I haven't said that it sucks, but I'll be the first to admit that there are problems with the way it's run that affect almost every dept in the nation, and the first to admit that the fire-service does bear it's share of responsibility for the current state of EMS.

I say it sucks, is that what makes me believe in the “bogeyman?” Of course I gave up trying to defend the party line some years ago. But I will try to now figure out how there are problems with the way it is run in every department in the nation if there is no national governing body. Especially if they are the same or similar problems.

 

[triemal04]

:censored::censored::censored::censored: it. There's more than enough flaws within your last 2 posts that I could continue pointing them out, but what's the point? You believe what you want, and despite the fallacy of it, that won't change. I suppose you're right and everybody should go on thinking that the fire service is the ultimate evil as far as EMS is concerned, that they are all that is holding EMS back, that if they were gone EMS would be a wonderful, problem free system, that every individual deptartment walks in lockstep with the IAFF and IAFC and mindlessly follows what they say, that each department is exactly the same, that nothing and no one else is creating problems for EMS or bears any responsibility and so forth.

Cheers.

 

[Hal9000]

that each department is exactly the same, that nothing and no one else is creating problems for EMS or bears any responsibility and so forth.

Cheers.

I didn't read anything similar to that in what he posted...

 

[atropine]

Hey hal9000, trying to explain it further is a waiste those who can't complain, simple as that their is no change happening anytime in the current ems system, especially where I live and work, and yes I am worth every penny that the city pays me, if not more and even though we still have brown outs Iam still going to make more than any RN or PA I know. I am all for education hell I even have to have a four year degree to promote, I just don't think giving taxi rides to the er promotes formal degrees.

 

[Veneficus]

Do I understand this correctly?

if not more and even though we still have brown outs Iam still going to make more than any RN or PA I know.

Do you think somebody might figure out that might be a waste of money?

I am all for education hell I even have to have a four year degree to promote, I just don't think giving taxi rides to the er promotes formal degrees.

So your job is so menial that you don't think it requires education but you should be paid more than a degreed worker?

and yes I am worth every penny that the city pays me,.

Did your mommy tell you that?

Maybe you should come back and argue after you get promoted.

 

[FuManChu]

Hey Everyone I'm back!

Been a while since I was back on the forum, a few things have changed. I graduated High School with a 3.5 GPA.
Been attending Solano College for 3 semesters now, on my fourth one finishing up all my general education. Been on the Dean's list for the past 3 semesters. After this semester is done I will have all my general education completed and I will be focusing on my Fire Science courses which include the Fire Academy next spring. After that I will have my degree in Fire Science as well as having completed a Firefighter 1 Academy.

This summer I am going to attend an EMT-B course, and see how I fare with it. If I do well and enjoy it, I will put effort into getting into a semester long anatomy and physiology course to help me build a foundation before trying to get into a Paramedic program.

My views have changed since I have first posted in the forum. I am not looking at EMT and possibly paramedic as just a stepping stone for getting hired as a firefighter, but I see it more as valuable knowledge I will have to work hard for to attain, and work hard to stay proficient at to better serve a community I may be working for.

I just wanna say thanks for all the advice all around from everyone.
And again I didn't mean to start any arguments or disagreements, and I am sorry if asking about EMT for Firefighting seemed unsettling to some.

I have a few more questions.

What are some good paramedic programs in the SF Bay Area, and are there good prep courses? or is taking Anatomy and Physiology the best I can do to help prepare for that.

Again Thanks a lot everyone for contributing in some way.
Sorry it took so long for me to reply (almost 3 years ).

-Anthony

 

[Sandog]

Solano College? I use to live in Fairfield many years ago. If you want to go fire, a good entry point is attend a Wildland fire academy and then shoot for Cal Fire. You should have EMT for Cal Fire. Also USFS is a good place to start, assuming you attend a wildland academy. You will most likely start out as a seasonal FF so in your off-time, attend school and apply to a fire academy and get your FF1.
As for the math, you should take a simple college math class so you can do the hydraulics stuff in FF, but that is just simple math. I made a excel hydraulics calculator, let me know if you want it, and I will post it.

It is tough getting into fire here in Ca, but it is possible.

Oh, and yes, an A&P class is definitely recommended. Just the one semester one will do for now.
Last, but not least, What ever you do, do not get a DUI or you can foget about it.

 

[FuManChu]

Also,
I am still worried about math!
I know for EMT-B it won't be anything to worry about, but if I plan on going through a Paramedic Program, I know it may be a problem.

For General Education at my college I needed to take a college level math course, so I took Statistics and passed with a B, had an A throughout the whole semester but didn't do well on the final so got a B.
I still feel I am terrible at math, and would hate taking another math course, but would I need to for a paramedic program? Or would I be able to just brush up on some math on my own time and be ok? Or what kind of math would one recommend for a paramedic program?

 

[FuManChu]

Solano College? I use to live in Fairfield many years ago. If you want to go fire, a good entry point is attend a Wildland fire academy and then shoot for Cal Fire. You should have EMT for Cal Fire. Also USFS is a good place to start, assuming you attend a wildland academy. You will most likely start out as a seasonal FF so in your off-time, attend school and apply to a fire academy and get your FF1.
As for the math, you should take a simple college math class so you can do the hydraulics stuff in FF, but that is just simple math. I made a excel hydraulics calculator, let me know if you want it, and I will post it.

It is tough getting into fire here in Ca, but it is possible.

Thanks Sandog!
I read that the Solano College Fire Academy now includes The Wildland Fire Academy in it now, so I won't have to take a separate academy or separate courses.
However I won't be starting the academy for about a year, I need to take some pre-reqs for it.

My girlfriends grandfather has been in the USFS for some 20+ years or so and told me he could help me getting on a hotshot crew after the fire academy if I wanted. That may be an option, after the Academy if I don't do the Paramedic program first after that.

 

[kthealy]

Since CA has some of the highest paying departments, they are only going to hire the highest level candidates. Some departments have tests that people can only take if they have a B.A/B.S. degree. I got my 4 year degree from Santa Clara University, and now starting fire classes a community college after getting my EMT cert. Have fun

 

[FuManChu]

Since CA has some of the highest paying departments, they are only going to hire the highest level candidates. Some departments have tests that people can only take if they have a B.A/B.S. degree. I got my 4 year degree from Santa Clara University, and now starting fire classes a community college after getting my EMT cert. Have fun

Thanks Kthealy.

Do you mind me asking what you got your Bachelors in?