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musicislife

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I am 15 years old and I am wondering about being a first responder. If i witness a crash or some other emergency, would it be ok to place some flares in the road and go into the car and hold c spine? Assuming i have called 911, and the car isn't on fire or anything. Would it be ok to render aid to a witnessed event (following protocols of course) Also, what would happen after as far as documentation? And is it acceptable to stop at a crash (with injuries) where just police officers are on scene?
 
If your off duty then it's all covered by the good Sam law (assuming you don't do something extremely stupid.)

If police are on scene you can stop and ask. If they say no, then keep on going.
 
good sam laws are no longer in my state (NJ) i think..
 
As a general guideline, ASK if people want assistance before you even call 911. Everyone has cell phones these days, and chances are the people involved have already called 911. And frankly, don't bother with c-spine unless they are A) Still sitting in the car B) Unconscious or C) Specifically state they are having neck pain.

I admit, there is something uniquely annoying about arriving on scene and finding my previously ambulatory patient with no complaints sitting in their car with someone holding c-spine for no reason what so ever. It usually takes longer to get the person to stop holding c-spine than it does to get the refusal.
 
You are only 15?

Oh and Good Samaritan laws vary from state to state...
 
And and far as documentation if your off duty then you don't need to write down anything. You don't even have to tell the fire/ambulance crew your name.

If I stop at an accident scene when I'm off duty I'm not going to give anyone my name or say that I'm an EMT. How can someone sue you if they don't even know who you are? (I've never seen police ask for the name of someone who was helping at a traffic collision.)
 
Aidey said:
As a general guideline, ASK if people want assistance before you even call 911. Everyone has cell phones these days, and chances are the people involved have already called 911.
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I would recommend calling 911 as soon as you become aware of the accident. Asking someone who's just had their head scrambled if they need help and then basing your decision to call 911 on their answer might meet with mixed results. Ambo can always be disregarded if need be. Beyond that

1. Do only what you are trained to do
2. Do only what you are comfortable doing
3. Do only what you can do safely

Generally if you apply 1 through 3 it pretty much rules everything beyond calling 911 out.
 
musicislife said:
I am 15 years old and I am wondering about being a first responder. If i witness a crash or some other emergency, would it be ok to place some flares in the road and go into the car and hold c spine? Assuming i have called 911, and the car isn't on fire or anything. Would it be ok to render aid to a witnessed event (following protocols of course) Also, what would happen after as far as documentation? And is it acceptable to stop at a crash (with injuries) where just police officers are on scene?
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As a general rule of thumb IMO, ( I'm studying scene size up and the assessments module right now) if you come into an area of an MVC, you should look and smell for fuel leakage- as throwing flares down would not be the greatest of ideas in that scenario, plus you also have the possibility of downed power lines that could ignite fuel as well. I'd say if you were off duty or whatever the best bet would be find something reflective if you have it or just use a flashlight to direct traffic around the incident. even if you are uphill from it. You would be covered under Good Samaritan Laws; just make sure you stay there until someone shows up, otherwise you can still be liable for abandonment. Watch out for maintaining the c-spine too; you might do more damage to the patient than you are helping them without a KED extrication . If there are LEOs on the scene already; that is just an ethical judgement by you to stop or not; 9-10 times they are gonna tell you to move along anyways.
and also- just because the vehicle is not on fire when you arrive does not mean it wont catch fire later- constant scene size up. There wouldn't really be any documentation involved on your behalf other than stating your observations and procedures you did to the ones in charge of the scene.

veterans- am i right on this?
 
Monkadelic said:
As a general rule of thumb IMO, ( I'm studying scene size up and the assessments module right now) if you come into an area of an MVC, you should look and smell for fuel leakage- as throwing flares down would not be the greatest of ideas in that scenario, plus you also have the possibility of downed power lines that could ignite fuel as well. I'd say if you were off duty or whatever the best bet would be find something reflective if you have it or just use a flashlight to direct traffic around the incident. even if you are uphill from it. You would be covered under Good Samaritan Laws; just make sure you stay there until someone shows up, otherwise you can still be liable for abandonment. Watch out for maintaining the c-spine too; you might do more damage to the patient than you are helping them without a KED extrication . If there are LEOs on the scene already; that is just an ethical judgement by you to stop or not; 9-10 times they are gonna tell you to move along anyways.
and also- just because the vehicle is not on fire when you arrive does not mean it wont catch fire later- constant scene size up. There wouldn't really be any documentation involved on your behalf other than stating your observations and procedures you did to the ones in charge of the scene.

veterans- am i right on this?
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omg I just spit beer out my nose. LOL
 
beano said:
omg I just spit beer out my nose. LOL
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okay. I'm sipping on brews also; any discrepancies you could share? yes 3 post < 100+; but i already work in EMS/healthcare for 4 years so dont treat me as a nub plz. if you have something to share then share it please- that is if it is in taste and is helpful to the situation presented by the OP.

thanks.
 
Monkadelic said:
okay. I'm sipping on brews also; any discrepancies you could share? yes 3 post < 100+; but i already work in EMS/healthcare for 4 years so dont treat me as a nub plz. if you have something to share then share it please- that is if it is in taste and is helpful to the situation presented by the OP.

thanks.
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Without reading the whole post the one major thing that I see is about abandonment. If your off duty then you don't have a duty to act (in most places). So if you don't have a duty to act then you can leave the scene whenever you wanted.
 
firefite said:
Without reading the whole post the one major thing that I see is about abandonment. If your off duty then you don't have a duty to act (in most places). So if you don't have a duty to act then you can leave the scene whenever you wanted.
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Yes you dont have the duty to act except for ethical purposes in that scenario; but.....
We were told that if you act off duty and leave you can still be liable for abandonment. But after reading the prior posts; who are they gonna know to sue if you don't tell them your name lol. You can still be charged with abandonment and negligence regardless if you are on or off duty.
 
Monkadelic said:
okay. I'm sipping on brews also; any discrepancies you could share? yes 3 post < 100+; but i already work in EMS/healthcare for 4 years so dont treat me as a nub plz. if you have something to share then share it please- that is if it is in taste and is helpful to the situation presented by the OP.

thanks.
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Your post was fine just a bit like it was copied out of the text book with the power lines down and possible fuel spill. I think that's probably where the amusement comes from. But if you were going to drop flares then spilled fuel is a real concern and in theory there could be a power line down. Wearing something reflective is an excellent idea. If the OP is going to make a habit of stopping at MVA's then investing in a cheap Hi Viz vest from Walmart might be a good idea.

edit
Oh and while they might not be able to sue you if you start treatment and then realize you're late for your movie and leave the scene do you really want to see your picture or name on TV as someone who did leave. Obligated or not once you start helping someone in nearly any situation you're generally going to be with that person until you're absolutely certain they don't need any help or someone else takes over.
 
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This is what i do when i get on scene to any emergency off duty.. I do not identify myself as an emt until i know i will have to provide some medical treatment. If c spine is indicated ill do that. I rarely call 911 due to there has probably already been 20000 calls already. But i do ask the bystanders that are already on scene and if someone is talking to dispatch ill ask for the phone and give a brief scene size up. Or unless they will need special equipment ie extraction. High low angle gear ext. Now if they are unresponsive ill do my abc. Now with all of this. I only stop if there is no emergency vehicles on scene this includes LE.
 
EMT11KDL said:
This is what i do when i get on scene to any emergency off duty.. I do not identify myself as an emt until i know i will have to provide some medical treatment. If c spine is indicated ill do that. I rarely call 911 due to there has probably already been 20000 calls already. But i do ask the bystanders that are already on scene and if someone is talking to dispatch ill ask for the phone and give a brief scene size up. Or unless they will need special equipment ie extraction. High low angle gear ext. Now if they are unresponsive ill do my abc. Now with all of this. I only stop if there is no emergency vehicles on scene this includes LE.
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The not identifying oneself as an EMT is a good play in my book. If I stumble upon some sort of accident, I'm not going to be able to anything that a layperson couldn't anyway. The only time I'll mention it is if hysteria is taken over and people are about to/have done silly things to the patient. Then it might be a good idea to "take charge." Or just leave.
 
If the patient is freaking out or its a pediatric is really the only time ill start by identifying myself. I know some people in here have enough equipment in there car to stalk a bus.. I personally don't unless i have my sar pack with me which is normally at home. But truly there not much anyone can do other than keep the pt calm and try tk control bleeding. Manual airway management. And cpr. More than that we can't do much more.. We can try to secure a scene but we all know how well that goes even when were on duty.
 
Scene Safety

You said you were wondering about becoming a first responder? If you aren't trained/certified appropriately, just make sure you stick to procedures in the scope of whatever official training you have. Otherwise, stopping at accidents is a mixed bag. If you're on the highway, pull over AHEAD of the accident not behind it, and approach the vehicle from the shoulder. Think of scene safety before the patients (if any.) Just ask if everyone is OK and call 911 to report the accident, if there are life threatening injuries or illnesses manage them again keeping YOUR SAFETY in mind. Don't base whether you call 911 or not off of what the patients say, at the very least get the cops out there.
 
Second that. Don't ask us, go get trained locally. And don't shop around for permissions, follow the guidelines.
Rule one is don't add yourself to the victim list, rule two is don't get in the way, for all of us. Without training and education, you will likely do both.
 
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