Feedback: Changing from 24 to 12 schedule

[CaliEMS]

Hi folks,
Looking for some feedback about how things have been handled when a crew has gone from 24 to 12 hour shifts - we have an average of 10 calls per car for a 24 hour shift. We are changing from 24’s 2x/wk with (3rd week 3 24’s), to a 3 day 12 hour week with 4 days every other week. We are going from average of 56 hours/week to 44 hours/week with no increase in hourly wage and a pretty big drop in pay. (Locked into a recently negotiated 5 year contract.)

Lots of people are upset for the various reasons some of us like 24 hour schedules but it seems the way of things and it is a done deal that it’s going to be implemented.

Here’s my question though: For those of you who were on crews that went from a 24 to 12 hour schedules, did you have any 8 or 10 hour shifts that were included in the bidding for the new 12 hour shifts? We have two 10 hour shifts - nothing is changing for them. The people that are on those shifts got the positions because they had more seniority. Now that those of us who have been doing 24 hour shifts are having to adjust our lives and family’s lives and our finances to the 12 hour schedule, for some reason the 10 hour crews are being included in the rebidding. Due to their seniority, they will get first pick and all the prime spots. Several of us are contacting the union with regard to this but I thought I would see how it was done at other places. My thought is that it seems that the bidding should only involve those who are currently in a 24 hour positions since those are the only positions being affected by the change. But I am open minded and would like to hear some other perspectives.
thanks!
CaliEMS

 

[DrParasite]

my former EMS agency had 8 hour shifts (for admin assigned personnel), 12 hour shift, and 24s.... hourly rates varied so you made the same every week. With trucks getting busier, almost all trucks are now 12s....

If you are taking a big drop in pay, the union should file a grievance. that's not cool, that's why you have negotiations. especially if you have a contract. Scheduling is a management concern, so they can move you around; however when they are giving you fewer hours than the contract specifies, that's a problem. now if you have a crappy contract, you might be screwed.

when it comes to rebidding, i am betting the union won't get involved. it's fairer to have everyone allowed to bid, vs just the 24 hour people. for all you know, the 12 hour people might want to switch to 10s, and if i was a senior person and I didn't get to bid on a different shift, I would be pissed.

Most places that I am aware of that went from 24s went to all 12s. some actually did 3 12 hour shifts and then a 4th 12, averaging 40 hours a week every month. we actually hired an extra full timer to cover the second week (that empty 12), and his bounced around on a prearranged schedule. with a large enough system, you can even have a dedicated day and night floating person.

Actually had one system go from 12s to 24/72 for the 24 hour trucks; the peak load trucks stayed at 12s on the 3/4 12s a week schedule. Pay rate was the same regardless of where you worked, but was still low.

 

[Aprz]

If you are taking a big drop in pay, the union should file a grievance.

It depends on what their collective bargaining agreement (CBA) says. If the employer is following the CBA, it's not grievable. Sometimes the union/bargaining team doesn't always negotiate a good CBA or parts of it won't be good. It's generally give and take. For example, we once voted in a CBA to freeze our steps to prevent the company from leaving the county I believe (this was right before I showed up), and we didn't get our steps back for years. To get our steps back, our attendance policy got much stricter, our requirement for comfort quarters decreased, and we lost the language that secured our meal breaks. Anyways, make sure read your CBA and ask your shop stewards any question after checking out your CBA.

We had 12s and 24s. Our union tried to make it so the annual pay was the same for both. As we got a cost of living adjustment (COLA) pay increase every year or new negotiated CBA, the pay for the shorter shifts generally got a bigger increase since they had a higher hourly pay rate already. They got rid of 24s due to safety and created 8s and 10s. We temporarily had 16s as well, but got rid of it later. A lot of people liked 8s since they would work two consecutive 8s like a 16, but they got a really high hourly pay rate, and they made more in overtime and double since the hourly rate was higher. The company stopped making 8 hour shifts because of this, which was within their in the CBA, and now we only do 10s and 12s.

 

[DrParasite]

It depends on what their collective bargaining agreement (CBA) says.

That is 100% true, which is why earlier I said

now if you have a crappy contract, you might be screwed.

While I am 100% pro union, and think many EMS agencies would benefit from unionization, the sad truth the union is only as strong a the contract you sign with management.

This is a question you need to address with your union leadership; they know the specifics to your situation, they know the contract that was signed with management, and they can give you proper guidance on what they are willing or able to do do about your specific situation.

 

[CaliEMS]

Yeah, the CBA is a done deal for the next 5 years. My current concern is the 10 hour shift day car people getting to bid for the new 12 hour shifts. I hear what you’re saying (Dr. Parasite) about being a senior person not getting to bid on the new positions. My take is that they got their sweet deal the last several years with a higher hourly wage and not working nights, and we have had the harder shifts, usually getting just a couple hours of sleep. Our shifts are the only ones changing and our annual salary will be reduced. It doesn’t seem right they should get to take the best of the 12 hour shifts.

 

[DesertMedic66]

To me it seems logical that they are having everyone rebid on shifts. The 12 hour shifts were not an option for them before and they may have had reasons for not wanting to do 24 hour shifts (I refuse to do routine 24 hour shifts on the ground). It sounds like you are saying “screw off” to the more veteran employees at your company who have put time in to get the shifts they want.

If you were in their position working a 10 hour shift because all the rest were 24s and the company changed to only two 2 hour shifts and the rest being 12s, wouldn’t you want an option to possibly change shifts if one of those shifts better aligns with your life? I know I would.

 

[CCCSD]

Seniority rules. As it should.

 

[DrParasite]

My take is that they got their sweet deal the last several years with a higher hourly wage and not working nights, and we have had the harder shifts, usually getting just a couple hours of sleep. Our shifts are the only ones changing and our annual salary will be reduced. It doesn’t seem right they should get to take the best of the 12 hour shifts.

I'm hearing a lot of waaah waaah waaaah, about the senior guys getting to pick the shifts that they want, and how they don't work as hard as you and it's not fair. Which, by the way, you always hear from the junior crowd, because the senior guys got first pick; you aren't the first to complain about it, and you won't be the last.

As you said, "they got their sweet deal at a higher wage blah blah blah" but I bet they didn't always get the higher wages and awesome shifts; they put their time in on crappy trucks for lower wages before they got a better one.

The longer you have been at the job, the greater the chances are you get to pick you shift. The newer guys ALWAYS get stuck working the suckier trucks, until they have been at the agency long enough to pick a different truck. Sometimes they get lucky and an opening happens in a year; other times no one leaves, and they are stuck there for 5+ years, until an opening appears.

Let me tell you a real world piece of advice: unless it is mandate by a contract, OT is NEVER EVER guaranteed. If you are a FT employee, your employer needs to give you between 36 and 40 hours a week, to stay full time. That's it. So when you average 16 hours of OT, and your employer backs you down to 4 hours of OT, that's smart business, not money you are entitled to. OT is NEVER guaranteed, and people who both relay and expect OT to always be there are often fools, especially when they are shocked when the OT dries up. Those who accept a lower wage because "OT will more than make up for it" are setting themselves up for failure, which seems to be exactly what happened to your company.

You aren't getting a big drop in pay, you are getting a big drop in OT, which are two different things; you are entitled to a set pay rate, an enough hours to make you full time; unless your CBA says otherwise, you aren't entitled to OT.

The way I see it, you have a few options:
1) talk to you union representative. read the contract your union signed with management. know the ins and outs, know what you are entitled to and what you aren't. learn exactly what it specifies. If a violation of your contract occurs, your union should take action.

2) Find a new job, but don't forget, your starting at the bottom of the seniority food chain, and will get the crappy trucks.

3) Do what everyone else did before you, suck it up, and deal with the harder units until you can bid on a better truck.

4) leave California, especially SoCal, for another state that does EMS better. And doesn't call an ambulance assignment a car

oh, and look at the bright side: "we have had the harder shifts, usually getting just a couple hours of sleep." Now that you are on 12s, you will get a full nights sleep once you get off the truck.

 

[chriscemt]

My take is that they got their sweet deal the last several years with a higher hourly wage and not working nights, and we have had the harder shifts, usually getting just a couple hours of sleep.

Isn't it likely that those with most seniority will continue to bid the 10-hour, given the higher (uneffected) pay?

 

[GMCmedic]

I'm hearing a lot of waaah waaah waaaah, about the senior guys getting to pick the shifts that they want, and how they don't work as hard as you and it's not fair. Which, by the way, you always hear from the junior crowd, because the senior guys got first pick; you aren't the first to complain about it, and you won't be the last.

As you said, "they got their sweet deal at a higher wage blah blah blah" but I bet they didn't always get the higher wages and awesome shifts; they put their time in on crappy trucks for lower wages before they got a better one.

The longer you have been at the job, the greater the chances are you get to pick you shift. The newer guys ALWAYS get stuck working the suckier trucks, until they have been at the agency long enough to pick a different truck. Sometimes they get lucky and an opening happens in a year; other times no one leaves, and they are stuck there for 5+ years, until an opening appears.

Let me tell you a real world piece of advice: unless it is mandate by a contract, OT is NEVER EVER guaranteed. If you are a FT employee, your employer needs to give you between 36 and 40 hours a week, to stay full time. That's it. So when you average 16 hours of OT, and your employer backs you down to 4 hours of OT, that's smart business, not money you are entitled to. OT is NEVER guaranteed, and people who both relay and expect OT to always be there are often fools, especially when they are shocked when the OT dries up. Those who accept a lower wage because "OT will more than make up for it" are setting themselves up for failure, which seems to be exactly what happened to your company.

You aren't getting a big drop in pay, you are getting a big drop in OT, which are two different things; you are entitled to a set pay rate, an enough hours to make you full time; unless your CBA says otherwise, you aren't entitled to OT.

The way I see it, you have a few options:
1) talk to you union representative. read the contract your union signed with management. know the ins and outs, know what you are entitled to and what you aren't. learn exactly what it specifies. If a violation of your contract occurs, your union should take action.

2) Find a new job, but don't forget, your starting at the bottom of the seniority food chain, and will get the crappy trucks.

3) Do what everyone else did before you, suck it up, and deal with the harder units until you can bid on a better truck.

4) leave California, especially SoCal, for another state that does EMS better. And doesn't call an ambulance assignment a car [emoji2961]

oh, and look at the bright side: "we have had the harder shifts, usually getting just a couple hours of sleep." Now that you are on 12s, you will get a full nights sleep once you get off the truck.

Thanks for typing all that out for me lol