Evoc
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JJR512
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What is P.O.S.T.?
...does your service/state/half of the country offer an EVOC course worth it's salt? All the classes i've ever heard of are pretty pointless....rough equivalent of a normal driver's ed class, only with a bigger vehicle - wich is pretty sad. Are there any alternatives out there?
JJR512
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My guess is that part of the problem is it's easier to have a small fleet of several $25,000 police cruisers available for a more intensive class on maneuvering at higher speeds than it is to have a small fleet of several $150,000 ambulances. And of course there's no point in taking the class in a PC because they don't handle anything like an ambo.
At least one community college in MD has a police-style EVOC but you have to be in the police officer program in conjunction with that county's police academy to take that class.
At least one community college in MD has a police-style EVOC but you have to be in the police officer program in conjunction with that county's police academy to take that class.
Our service has been doing high speed amb. EVOC for years. We have 6 instructors that are all POST certified DEVOC instructors. Not many non-PD of those in the country I think. The instructor course is conducted by the metro area PD in PD cars of course but we then tailor the same class to our ambulances. About the only thing that we edit is the 12 o'clock backing exercises due to the obvious lack of an available rear window. After each class it runs about an $11,000 shop bill for the cars we use on the course. Did you know you can do J-turns in a box ambulance?
Egg
Egg
Ridryder911
EMS Guru
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Okay,... now let's really think about what has been written.. "high speed amb. EVOC" .. is that an oxymoron?
C'mon folks, when was the last time you had to pursue someone? Why, would any EVOC want to endorse "high speed" any way? The reason for EMS is NOT to have to have high speed. If your service does condone or endorse such, then they have more problems than an EVOC course.
EVOC courses in EMS should promote safe and smooth driving, with moderate speed to be able to control the weight distribution and maneuverability of the ambulance. As well, they should enforcing NOT TO SPEED!
We do NOT pursue, NOR or we LEO and our EVOC are totally different than those of LEO. The weight, stopping, and even purposes are totally different.
R/r 911
C'mon folks, when was the last time you had to pursue someone? Why, would any EVOC want to endorse "high speed" any way? The reason for EMS is NOT to have to have high speed. If your service does condone or endorse such, then they have more problems than an EVOC course.
EVOC courses in EMS should promote safe and smooth driving, with moderate speed to be able to control the weight distribution and maneuverability of the ambulance. As well, they should enforcing NOT TO SPEED!
We do NOT pursue, NOR or we LEO and our EVOC are totally different than those of LEO. The weight, stopping, and even purposes are totally different.
R/r 911
Rid,
With respect you're missing the point of advanced driver courses. The point of "high speed" courses isn't necissarily to teach you to drive 100 mph routinely, but to teach you the limits of your vehicle, and how to safely cope with near misses at any speed. Additionally "high speed" is a relative term....40 in an ambulance can be darn fast depending on conditions, especialy in an Ambu. Never-mind if you throw in bad conditions...as traction decreases, the importance of both knowing how to tell when you are reaching the limits of your ambulance, as well as the knowledge of what to do if those limits are exceeded, is very important.
In fact displaying the ease with which you lose control of an Ambu at 30 MPH when confronted with an unexpected obstacle (or even sudden break-lights) would be a very good moderating influence on some of the more agressive ambulance drivers out there. Of course I wouldnt know, because I've never heard of these classes offered.
However, fact every winter I take my POV to an empty parking lot at the first snow and intentionally send myself into a series of skids...both to get a feel for when the car will slip, and also an idea of how to recover from the skid. Now do I do that on normal roads?...no. But does it make me a better driver? darn right.
Afterthought: high-speed training can help with smoothness too. Picking the best line around the curve may allow race car drivers to go as fast as possible...but it also can provide the smoothest ride for an ambulance at any speed - it mimizes the G-forces on the ambulance, and thus on the occupants. Normal EVOC doenst even come close to teaching control of an ambulance.
With respect you're missing the point of advanced driver courses. The point of "high speed" courses isn't necissarily to teach you to drive 100 mph routinely, but to teach you the limits of your vehicle, and how to safely cope with near misses at any speed. Additionally "high speed" is a relative term....40 in an ambulance can be darn fast depending on conditions, especialy in an Ambu. Never-mind if you throw in bad conditions...as traction decreases, the importance of both knowing how to tell when you are reaching the limits of your ambulance, as well as the knowledge of what to do if those limits are exceeded, is very important.
In fact displaying the ease with which you lose control of an Ambu at 30 MPH when confronted with an unexpected obstacle (or even sudden break-lights) would be a very good moderating influence on some of the more agressive ambulance drivers out there. Of course I wouldnt know, because I've never heard of these classes offered.
However, fact every winter I take my POV to an empty parking lot at the first snow and intentionally send myself into a series of skids...both to get a feel for when the car will slip, and also an idea of how to recover from the skid. Now do I do that on normal roads?...no. But does it make me a better driver? darn right.
Afterthought: high-speed training can help with smoothness too. Picking the best line around the curve may allow race car drivers to go as fast as possible...but it also can provide the smoothest ride for an ambulance at any speed - it mimizes the G-forces on the ambulance, and thus on the occupants. Normal EVOC doenst even come close to teaching control of an ambulance.
Ridryder911
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Oh, I understand the philosophy of both. I had been through P.O.S.T. courses when I was with a LEO, multiple times. The point is the courses are totally different for pursuit driving and control than those for an emergency vehicle of 4 tons.
Roll-over and weight distribution is totally different. Ambulance EVOC should be geared similar positions in maneuverability, and as well breaking distances. In my earlier years, I was an EVOC instructor and honor those that really do take that job seriously. The same is true in Fire Apparatus and EMS are not the same. Fire apparatus, definitely has to have additional educational training in regards of weight shifting and stopping distances in regards to water rebounding. Again, another speciality and no similarity in POST type courses.
There is quite a bit of difference between driving a Crown Vic and a Ford F-series.. as well as a Type I and Type III. There are special EMS EVOC speciality courses designed to meet the demands of our business. Volunteer Firefighter Insurance Corporation has outline courses for EMS and Fire Apparatus.
R/r 911
Roll-over and weight distribution is totally different. Ambulance EVOC should be geared similar positions in maneuverability, and as well breaking distances. In my earlier years, I was an EVOC instructor and honor those that really do take that job seriously. The same is true in Fire Apparatus and EMS are not the same. Fire apparatus, definitely has to have additional educational training in regards of weight shifting and stopping distances in regards to water rebounding. Again, another speciality and no similarity in POST type courses.
There is quite a bit of difference between driving a Crown Vic and a Ford F-series.. as well as a Type I and Type III. There are special EMS EVOC speciality courses designed to meet the demands of our business. Volunteer Firefighter Insurance Corporation has outline courses for EMS and Fire Apparatus.
R/r 911
Fair enough - I guess I mis-interpreted what you were saying a bit. There's on question that the courses should be different - obviously ambulance sare not pursuit vehicles - but they do drive in all types of conditions, and being forced to take evasive manuvers is far from unheard of, even in systems which attempt to reduce lights and siren use.
I am not at all a fan of the VFIC course (that's the course I took). That course (or at least the version I took) attempts to scare you into driving slowly (a noble goal, admittedly), but has next to zero material about the physics of driving, cornering, etc....I think they mentioned once that they "could" go into the physics of the best route along a curve, hugging the apex, curves which change radius partway through..etc...but they didn't.
The driving portion was a joke - you hit maybe 20 mph on the course, never get anywhere near the limits of the ambulance, do nothing on wet-tracks, with braking distances, cornering, etc. Most of the course is parking between cones, or low-speed close-quarters manuvering (again, a good thing, but insufficent). Paralell parking is a great skill...but is unlikely to save too many lives. I dont see that as sufficent.
I am not at all a fan of the VFIC course (that's the course I took). That course (or at least the version I took) attempts to scare you into driving slowly (a noble goal, admittedly), but has next to zero material about the physics of driving, cornering, etc....I think they mentioned once that they "could" go into the physics of the best route along a curve, hugging the apex, curves which change radius partway through..etc...but they didn't.
The driving portion was a joke - you hit maybe 20 mph on the course, never get anywhere near the limits of the ambulance, do nothing on wet-tracks, with braking distances, cornering, etc. Most of the course is parking between cones, or low-speed close-quarters manuvering (again, a good thing, but insufficent). Paralell parking is a great skill...but is unlikely to save too many lives. I dont see that as sufficent.
OK, I maybe was a bit misleading. By high speed I mean by comparison. 50mph evasive, testing the limits of your vehicle on various types of corners, braking and so forth. Though our instructors are POST certified the course is not. It is the same course just a bit altered to accomodate some dimensional aspects not covered by the POST course. We drive ourselves and our vehicles @ %100 of our abilities so that we may react better during things nomally encountered during a shift. Does anyone else engage in this type of training is what I am wondering. Doing your very best to break a Crown Vic for a week straight is not the same as driving and ambulance I'll agree. But you can indeed apply the lessons learned. Although the manner in which your vehicle reacts may be different, the reasons it reacts this way are the same. I feel that agencies (save the very poor ones) that do not engage in this type of training are pennywise and pound foolish. Sure it saves money in both OT and repair but in the long run how much is paid out due to :censored::censored::censored::censored:e driving practices. If I can manage multiple reps of a high speed evasive I will probably not flake out when cut off on the street.
Egg
What is VFIC?
I can't believe they censored :censored::censored::censored::censored:e!!!
How about Bullocks?
Egg
What is VFIC?
I can't believe they censored :censored::censored::censored::censored:e!!!
How about Bullocks?
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