EMT-B required hours of training

[Sasha]

great tell me why, what is wrong, what can be done to fix it, what i can do to better`prepare myself. Your reply did very little of that, just told me I am not educated, don't know anything, foolish. That does very little to further your cause.

That's what's wrong, the educational standards.

 

[FireMedic65]

This issue has been discussed many times on many different forums. It will never be let go it seems. Although education is very important in EMS, it's all what you put into it. You can learn very little from actually sitting through lectures, mostly what which is read from a powerpoint presentation that comes right out of your book anyway.

If you want to be a good provider, sit and and read your book. Improving the education system for EMS is simply a matter of requiring more from the students and more rigorous training. Does this mean more time? Yes, it does, and no I am not contradicting myself. I still stand by my words in education is what you put into it.

The basic level of EMT is too simple. Like stated previously, the system is a joke and people who want to paint nails have more time in training. EMS is not a hobby, peoples lives are at stake. Pharmacology, anatomy, physiology should be a required college course before you can even start your EMT-B training.

 

[EDAC]

That's what's wrong, the educational standards.

OK great, now tell me what can be done to fix it. What I can do to better`prepare myself.

I worked in an industry where every June we went to Sacramento, about 10,000 strong met with our leaders, gave our opinions on the laws affecting our industry. Do you think we were heard? Yes we were many laws were changed, voted down, aloud voice can make a difference, and tere is strength in numbers, but complaining on an internet chat board and writing letters to your elected officials is not going to get you far. If EMS is truely broken then you will have to make a stand and do it in great numbers, if you can't get the support to do that, then I would question the legitmacy of the claim.

 

[AJ Hidell]

Dude, get off it. Nobody cares what an expert you were at whatever industry you crawled out of, or how much life experience you have. That's old news. This is a new game. You know nada about EMS. You're in our house now. Don't come here with a couple of weeks of book learnin' behind you and pretend that you are going to save us from ourselves. Yes, anyone is welcome to mouth off on the Internet. But it takes more than verbal diarrhea from a n00b to earn any respect for your opinions. Regardless of your right to give it, your opinion is worthless. You have zero education or experience from which to form an informed or intelligent opinion. So don't get all bent out of shape over people giving no credence to your mindless drivel here. If you want to succeed in this new hobby of yours, drop the attitude and do a lot more listening than talking. Had you actually read a few topics before starting with your pointless posts, you'd already know the answers to the questions you are asking, and possibly even realize how silly you are acting.

 

[EDAC]

Dude, get off it. Nobody cares what an expert you were at whatever industry you crawled out of, or how much life experience you have. That's old news. This is a new game. You know nada about EMS. You're in our house now. Don't come here with a couple of weeks of book learnin' behind you and pretend that you are going to save us from ourselves. Yes, anyone is welcome to mouth off on the Internet. But it takes more than verbal diarrhea from a n00b to earn any respect for your opinions. Regardless of your right to give it, your opinion is worthless. You have zero education or experience from which to form an informed or intelligent opinion. So don't get all bent out of shape over people giving no credence to your mindless drivel here. If you want to succeed in this new hobby of yours, drop the attitude and do a lot more listening than talking. Had you actually read a few topics before starting with your pointless posts, you'd already know the answers to the questions you are asking, and possibly even realize how silly you are acting.

Ah, there you go, the kind of thing that i have come to expect here. Instead of having an intellegent response, your primal instinct is to go into defense mode and try to overcome your self imposed inadequacies. If that is the only respons you are capable of giving I really feel sorry for you. I kinda thought you may be able to formulate better thoughts, but appearently not, you did nothing but try to put me down using a lot of childish and mindless articulation. if you had something intellegent to say i might listen to you, when you want to come up to an adult level, please do, you may even pass for human. You gave nothing to this post other than mean spirited and less than classy words. I really don't care who you are or think you are, you have no significance to me or my life. Play the funny buffoon here all you want, it fits you well. If you don't have the mental capacity to do anything else other than "attempt" to put others down great, you must do what you need to do to compensate for your "short' comings. Although you can't or won't give the same considerations, i do look forward to having a meaningful exchange of ideas with you, but until then I really don't want to sink to your level, I will wait for you to drag yourself up. Your professionalism just beams a light of hope and forward thinking, you must be proud.

 

[daedalus]

Ah, there you go, the kind of thing that i have come to expect here. Instead of having an intellegent response, your primal instinct is to go into defense mode and try to overcome your self imposed inadequacies. If that is the only respons you are capable of giving I really feel sorry for you. I kinda thought you may be able to formulate better thoughts, but appearently not, you did nothing but try to put me down using a lot of childish and mindless articulation. if you had something intellegent to say i might listen to you, when you want to come up to an adult level, please do, you may even pass for human. You gave nothing to this post other than mean spirited and less than classy words. I really don't care who you are or think you are, you have no significance to me or my life. Play the funny buffoon here all you want, it fits you well. If you don't have the mental capacity to do anything else other than "attempt" to put others down great, you must do what you need to do to compensate for your "short' comings. Although you can't or won't give the same considerations, i do look forward to having a meaningful exchange of ideas with you, but until then I really don't want to sink to your level, I will wait for you to drag yourself up. Your professionalism just beams a light of hope and forward thinking, you must be proud.

Actually, he did give you some pretty sound advice. If you take a few hours to read some threads, you will realize why it is not possible at this time to amass a great number of paramedics in fire based states to support more education. But really, if you think there is no problem with a person providing medical care to my or your family with 110 hour course behind them, well, we do not need you anywhere near EMS.

 

[EDAC]

Actually, he did give you some pretty sound advice. If you take a few hours to read some threads, you will realize why it is not possible at this time to amass a great number of paramedics in fire based states to support more education. But really, if you think there is no problem with a person providing medical care to my or your family with 110 hour course behind them, well, we do not need you anywhere near EMS.

I did not say anywhere in any of my posts if I thought 110 hours was enough or not. No mention of it from me of whether it is good or bad. I don't know, and stated such earlier. I ahve read ad nausem the many posts here on education, or lack there of. If you can't engage and generate new ideas why have an open forum, just shut it off and only allow people to just search. If you or anybody else has answered a question and feels that they don't want to participate, fine. Maybe someone who has not weighed in has a new or differing opinion. If :censored: thinks my post is pointless that is his opinion, and his opinion is just that, his opinion. I give no creedance to what he says at this time, he cannot conduct himself like a human being. As I stated if he wants to engage in intellengent adult discussion, and try to refrain from the sophmoric BS, I will gladly welcome anything he has to say, and take it into consideration.

 

[AJ Hidell]

If you can't engage and generate new ideas why have an open forum, just shut it off and only allow people to just search. If you or anybody else has answered a question and feels that they don't want to participate, fine. Maybe someone who has not weighed in has a new or differing opinion.

Not really relevant, since so far you have not offered us any new ideas or new and differing opinion. When you do, that will be welcome. But right now, you're doing nothing but showing your ignorance. But we're used to it. This is one of the problems with having a 110 hour entry level. It leads every n00b to believe that he knows it all after just a couple of weeks.

Tell us what field you were so well experienced and educated before EMS. I'm sure we have some new ideas and new opinions to offer on that, even though we probably have no education or experience on it from which to form such opinions.

 

[EDAC]

Ah, thank you o' wise one for taking the time to once again shower us with your never ending knowledge. You must be the only person who came directly from the womb with thousands of hours of experience in your chosen field. Must be nice to not have been bothered with starting at the begininng and working your way up. Unfortunately for us mere mortals we have to start somewhere and in my case EMT-B is the starting place. So yeah I will have to go through the steps to get to where I want to be, but at least I will get where I want to be.

As far as my last profession, thank you for asking, since you referenced it twice in this thread, I will divulge to you. I owned a Real Estate Brokerage for 15 years. I started as an agent in the office and worked my way up to office manager and bought the business my 8th year in the office. I have served as the regional VP, the President of the Board of Directors for a year and the VP of the Board of Directors for 3 years. I was a state (CAR) director for 4 years and an NAR director for 3 years. I have spoken to congerss and spoken on the state assembly floor. I represented the CAR in Sacramento for 4 years and represented NAR in Washington DC for two years. I was in the business when the RE market was at a low and when it was at it's peak. I was able to retire before the age of 40 and made a life for my family that will allow us to live out the remainder of our lives very comfortably. My children will be taken care of as well as my mother and sister as long as they live.

I got into EMS not as a hobby as you so contumely put it, but as a way to give back to others. I have lived a very blessed life and never wanted for anything. So I have committed myself to give everything I have to be as sucessful in this field as i have been in the past. If I wanted a hobby i would take up knitting. I take everything I do seriously and will be the best I can be, second best for me is never an option, so I do ask questions and alot of them, but as you so eloquently put it, they are stupid and pointless. Perhaps to you, but not to me. Whatever the requirements are is what they are, and I have no control over that. I can only do what is asked of me and make the best of it. If it means a 110 hour course then so be it, if it means more then that is fine also. If my being here is a bother to you, well frankly I don't care, I cannot worry about what someone I don't know thinks of me or my career desions. The only people who matter in my life are my wife and kids, I care about what they think and they are the only ones whose opinions matter to me. I don't care if you like me, hate me, or would'nt walk across the street to piss on me if I were on fire. If my life and actions only make an impression on my kids to work hard and be the best people they can be then I have done my job and your opinions of me or my presence here are irrelevant.

 

[FireMedic65]

With an attitude like that, you won't get very far. You haven't even started yet and already you are stepping on toes. Grow up a little, get it through your head that this isn't all about YOU. Listen to what people say. Most of everyone here has been doing this for a long time and we are sick of seeing newbs coming into the field thinking they can run stuff.

With such a successful career as you say you have had, it seems you worked hard for it, and why would a matter of hours bother you in this?

 

[daedalus]

It seems to me that a Real Estate professional would be a little more....diplomatic. No judged you for having to start out as an EMT. In fact, if you do it right, you can be a role model for your peers. If not, you can be another card carrying member of the 900 or so new EMTs California gets every semester.

Your alienating yourself from some very helpful people on this forum.

 

[Shishkabob]

It leads every n00b to believe that he knows it all after just a couple of weeks.

You mean I don't?!

:huh:

 

[Chimpie]

First let me start by stating that this forum was created so that everyone had a voice, so that everyone could share their opinions. Everyone is free to agree or disagree on any subject, and you may share your thoughts as long as you follow the Community Rules.

If one reviews the numerous threads on the subject they will find that the majority of the members here feel that 110 hours is not enough. The original poster created this thread simply stating that people don't realize that there is more than 110 hours being put in because of study time and additional education.

I believe the thread started to go south when EDAC misread AJ's post. AJ stated that EMS education is a joke and a disgrace. EDAC, I feel, took this as EMS is a joke and a disgrace.

EDAC, being new and passionate is a wonderful thing. I applaude you for attempting to take on a new career and going above and beyond with your education. I hope that if you do continue on in EMS that you do become a paramedic, and a darn good one.

AJ, everyone is free to share their thoughts and opinions, including those new to the industry. Even you stated, "Tell us what field you were so well experienced and educated before EMS. I'm sure we have some new ideas and new opinions to offer on that, even though we probably have no education or experience on it from which to form such opinions." Sometimes businesses hire people new to the their respective industry to gain those new ideas and opinions. We shouldn't be telling someone new that their opinions are worthless.

I do agree with EDAC on one point though. Over the past five years I have seen many threads created where members have said that the current education standards are not enough. I applaude members like daedalus who have taken the time to reach out to their lawmakers to get these standards changed. But I have seen way too many times members posting how they hate this or hate that but don't do anything to change it. Saying you hate the way something is done but also saying you don't know how to change it is one thing. Complaining just to complain is another.

Offer constructive points of view and this thread will stay open. Anything else will result in this and other threads being closed.

 

[VentMedic]

As far as my last profession, thank you for asking, since you referenced it twice in this thread, I will divulge to you. I owned a Real Estate Brokerage for 15 years. I started as an agent in the office and worked my way up to office manager and bought the business my 8th year in the office. I have served as the regional VP, the President of the Board of Directors for a year and the VP of the Board of Directors for 3 years. I was a state (CAR) director for 4 years and an NAR director for 3 years. I have spoken to congerss and spoken on the state assembly floor. I represented the CAR in Sacramento for 4 years and represented NAR in Washington DC for two years. I was in the business when the RE market was at a low and when it was at it's peak. I was able to retire before the age of 40 and made a life for my family that will allow us to live out the remainder of our lives very comfortably. My children will be taken care of as well as my mother and sister as long as they live.

Okay, let's go with something you are familiar with. A few years ago I went through the same real estate class that many become licensed from. For me it was just to gain some knowledge while the others wanted to get into the real estate profession to make their fortune. The class was less than two weeks. I came out of it wondering how in the heck I would ever trust some of those in that class with helping me invest $300k of my money. I can see how a similar comparison can be made to the EMT-B and someone's life. 3 weeks worth of training just doesn't seem to be enough. Needless to say, for my real estate investment I sort after an agent that did put some time and effort into their education and didn't just graduate from one of those real estate agency mills. EMS has similar mills where companies just want warm bodies on their trucks to move patients from point A to point B.

Just like Real Estate, those in EMS that want to become better prepared for the profession can take college classes and gain degrees. But, just like Real Estate, many do just take the bare minimum to get their certification/license.

And, in some parts of the country, the real estate industry has failed to police itself and should also carry part of the responsibility for what role they have played in this failed economy. Likewise, EMS also failed to police itself or legislators passed the responsibility off to individual counties such and in California which resulted in extremely poor oversight for the profession as a whole in that state. Surely you are familiar with the SacBee's exposure of the EMSA flaws. Those articles actually instigated a change that has shown a little improvement in CA or at least the EMSA got a nicer website out of it.

Legislators and other government officials have also be easily swayed to fulfilling their own agendas which has given EMS the turf wars between FDs, County and privates for tax money and the rights to EMS in a region. Again, I can use CA as an example where the FDs have limited how a Paramedic can be utilized outside of the FD. Thus, the MICN (nurse) has become a great strength especially for Flight (HEMS) and Critical Care Transport (CCT).

As a Real Estate professional and business owner, you may also have had your own agenda and reasons for being politically active and supported propositions that would be of benefit to you. Your views may also have differed with others who has their own ideas about how the real estate industry should be ran.

To gain more credibility and consistent education in the schools, the NREMT will be requiring Paramedic schools to be CAAHEP/CoAEMSP accredited. Two states do require at the minimum of an Associates degree to be licensed as a Paramedic. My state, Florida, provides all ALS service to every resident in the state. While I don't agree with the way the state has achieved educating many of these Paramedics, Florida has shown it is possible to provide the higher level of care regardless of the socioeconomic status of some areas. Accreditation at the national level will hopefully force schools to get on track or get out of the industry.

Read some of the recent posts from the Australian and Canadian forum members. I think you will start to see where the entry level education for both the EMT and Paramedic are lacking in the U.S. You will also discover that each state has been doing its own thing to where there are over 50 different state certifications/licenses recognized in each state, many of which don't cross the state line. Some are actually based on just a 3 hour training class for a "skill". As in other health care professions, there is not a national minimum or even some national organization that can represent EMS that is credible enough to lobby for fair legislation.

Those of us that have been around for awhile, 30+ years, do have higher education and obtained our degrees in the 1970s or early 1980s when EMS still had a chance to become a solid healthcare profession. Unfortunately, agencies saw an opportunity for their own agendas and that got side tracked. Sometimes it is also those in EMS that have become its worst enemies since they see no need to go further than the 110 hours of training and fail to see how education can benefit the patient. They too have their own agendas and often it isn't about patient care.