Education within EMS organizations (long post!)

medicdan

Forum Deputy Chief
Premium Member
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Hey all—

I know I am about to open up some sore wounds, what I am about to say is a bit controversial and I apologize, I just want to get this out onto the table.

A little background: I am an EMT-B (trained, but not yet certified as an EMT-I) who worked within EMS for some time before starting college. I currently work part time for a private ambulance company in a large urban area. The company I work for does little 911, and many dialysis, discharge and SNF transfers. The following rant and questions emanate from a discussion with a partner last week.

Within our specific company, a nice number of EMTs and Medics tend to have attained or be working towards higher levels of education-- just about all of our Medics have a BA/BS, and are working towards higher degrees, and many of our career EMTs are college graduates, and either cannot find work in their fields of study and have been with the company for a long time or are working towards jobs in other fields and use EMS as a stepping stone.

Many of our part time employees are college students-- more then glad to work nights and weekends for what is considered to be good wages for a college student.
Then we look at the managers and administrators of the company-- all very competent (although generally profit-minded rather then patient-care-minded, but that's a different story). One our of five of the supervisors has a college degree, one of the operations directors has a 2 or 3 year business school certificate, and neither of the owners have any higher education. Specifically, nobody in management (except, of course, for our ALS coordinators) is trained to the paramedic level.

What does this say about our company? About EMS in general? I harbor no hard feelings towards my superiors, and they are all excellent at their jobs. They all have decades of experience in EMS and know the business well.
What does this say in relation to our close cousin, the fire department (service), where in order to be promoted you need to show completion of specific higher education, etc.? Should EMS management require education? Should a private service insist on it? How about a municipal 911 service? Third Service?
What does it say on a global level about the EMTs and Medics? Although much of the staff comes to the company as new EMTs and Medics, they generally have significant life experience. What does it say about the state of the economy that the best job that college graduates can get is on a transfer truck moving dialysis patients around?

What does it say about our promotion possibilities when the company shows they don’t honor education?

I have always thought about the EMS promotional algorithm as a triangle—very wide at the bottom, narrowing towards the top. Location on the triangle is directly related to level of training and amount of experience. EMT-Bs at the bottom, Medics in the middle and top. I recall being told (possibly brainwashed) that in order to move up, one needed medic training, whether you use the skills or not. This is certainly true within fire departments (and we have learned the importance of skill usage recently with the FL firefighters, who, incidentally, have all been reinstated after acing the med test, as of today).

All of this begs the question about long-term solvency for careers in paramedicine. I know we have a whole bunch of wise and experienced medics on this board, and I would love to hear from you. Aside from CC transport, flight medicine, education, nursing school, etc, what should the long-term aspirations of our paramedics be? Looking at the astronomical numbers of burnout, back injury, etc, what does EMS have for their future?

I firmly believe that in order for an individual medical provider (whether it be an EMT, medic, RN, MD, RRT, XRT, etc.) to be their best, they need to constantly be seeking and gaining additional education. With EMT-B classes sitting at as few as 110 hours, often not exceeding advanced first aid, and medic mills churning out medics in just a few months, there is always more knowledge to be gained.

All of this begs me to think about what education is really necessary to run a business or to manage a private ambulance company. Business is certainly crucial, as is knowledge of the local medical world (the state of area hospitals, SNFs, dialysis, 911 contracts, etc.). Does one really need to know acid/base balance in order to determine how many trucks to staff on a given day? How about the importance of ACLS protocols for which contracts to pursue?

I guess what I am asking (apart from reactions to my rant), is what training the administration of your company or service has? What training or education should they have? What should long-term training goals be?

I would really appreciate your comments on this—and I apologize if I have offended anyone.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
12,681
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I think it really depends on what the managers are doing. Companies need to avoid the "Peter Principle" which states that a person rises to their level of incompetence. If the supervisors are leaving clinical judgments to the ALS coordinator, then do you really need a paramedic to solve interpersonal disputes and make sure that company rules are being followed? Being a great[insert level] doesn't necessarily make you even a good [insert one level higher] or supervisor. If your company is running smoothly and competently with out managers/supervisors who are power tripping and/or overcompensating, then does it matter what level, EMS and degree, they are trained and educated to? A higher education does not always equate to higher ability and vice versa, it just normally does.
 

Ridryder911

EMS Guru
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This is not exclusively to EMS. I worked beside a lady with over forty years experience and had a dual PhD and MPH in the State Department of Health. She made a little over 25k a year and was under me at the time with only an associate degree. Makes sense?

The main point; she did not have the license. She was neither a RN or Paramedic rather a statistician and researcher. Her role was crucial and it literally pissed me off that she was getting treated and payed as such. Yet, her demand and role was that of I could find as many as I wanted to ....cheaper.

So I always advise to be wise in what area of education you focus upon. Remember, there is no fool like an educated fool. Education is never foolish, but be sure to be wise to use it accordingly. Degrees alike Philosophy and even English, History is very hard to obtain and net little results. There is not a demand for philosophers these days...

What a shame is that what you described is that those that does have the education is NOT using it accordingly. How are they applying the knowledge and skills obtained by those earned degrees? Using EMS as stepping stone or "just to get buy" is not advancing EMS as well. What good are they to EMS if they are not advancing and promoting the system?

Again, I see with this type of generation ... What is in it for me? ....

Until, we in EMS are willing to give, and use what we have, don't expect EMS to be able to give back.

R/r 911
 

John E

Forum Captain
367
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Hmmm...

are the management folks doing patient care or do they push papers around a desk and make sure that the company stays solvent enough for those who do treat patients to make a living?

Some people excel at "management" some folks excel at doing the grunt work, they typically all think that the one side doesn't appreciate the another and of course they're correct.

In any business where there are clear and distinct differences between those doing the work that brings in the funds and those who administer the funds, there will always be that division. Frankly, I'd rather be transported or have a family member transported by the folks who value more education rather than know that the administrators all have masters degrees.

Scheduling labor, billing Medicare, and making sure that the bills get paid doesn't require any Paramedic training. Who would you rather have making sure that your pay check is accurate, another EMT/Paramedic or an accountant/bookkeeper?

The requirements of paramedic training for advancement in the fire service is simply their archaic method of determining ability. Given that once a Paramedic enters into management they're typically not doing patient care, why should they continue with that type of training?

I had a conversation with a LA city fire inspector at work the other day, he described some of the hoops he has had to jump thru in order to get a promotion, it was ridiculous. He's already partly disabled, can't and doesn't want to work on a truck or even in a station, but he has to take the same classes and pass the same fire classes in order to get promoted within his office. Why? Because the LA fire dept. is using the same archaic system that dictates that anyone who wants to work in management MUST have all of the same advanced fire fighting education, regardless of what their actual job is. A waste of his time and the departments resources and one of the reasons why he'll probably leave instead of continuing to fight with the brass.

John E.
 

Jon

Administrator
Community Leader
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I think that any ALS provider needs to have some form of supervisor who knows about ALS... that would be the ALS coordinator(s). They answer to someone else, I'm sure, but as long as the buck stops with them for clinical issues, than I'm not sure the owners need to have ALS certs... but if the owners make ALS clinical decisions (what is/isn't ALS, what drugs to/not to carry) than perhaps they really should be medics, so that they understand what they are talking about.

Does anyone in managment have an MBA? EMS is a big buisness... and should be run as such.
 

Ridryder911

EMS Guru
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Actually we had some Paramedics with a MBA. So what? They knew very little about health administration though. My focus was hospital and health care administration at one time and almost finished my degree (lacked internship) but alas I seen the writing on the wall. It was soon that they figured one could take care of patients, staff, and schedule , manage and so on.. for the same amount of money as one that did not do those responsibilities. As well those positions were soon abolished...


Yes, EMS is a business but a health care business and that is totally different.

R/r 911
 

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
11,322
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Rocket science not involved here.

Poorly run outfits fold or the boss is replaced. You need leaders and managers and mpney people, not necessarily swinging Paramedics, running things.

The promotion pyramid is more like a thumbtack or a Parcheesi piece. Hundreds of thousands of young people are smart enough and starry eyed enough to do EMS. This will keep wages low and cause promotion to have lots of hoops.

The danger about wrong backgrounds isn't about training but in personality. The millisecond administrators start believing their own picture of the world without benefit of unfiltered input, you start getting nonsense. Experience helps with this, but the second you leave the line you start losing touch.
 
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