Court: Impaired man’s conversation with EMT after crash not privileged

[MasterIntubator]

We work very closely with local law enforcement (probably more so than the FD). They also understand OUR function is not law enforcement.


"Covering it up" and not calling the cops are two different issues. Especially in the case of something like drugs, outside of finding a kilo of coke or heroin on the patient, the ones around here would rather NOT be involved.
Guess I could have clarified better.... if the LEOs are there along with me, and I find it on assessement - it will be handed over. Already left the scene and found .... turned over to the hospital staff. Then its theirs.

Can't say I've heard of this being common in any way. But the way you label "criminals" is slightly concerning, they're all "patients" regardless of legal status, and at the point your speaking of having contact with them they fall in the "accused" category.
Many are criminals. Handcuffed and ready for transport for an evaluation to make sure they don't die in the jail cell. They all get the same treatment and respect as anyone else on our bus. Didn't mean to label them all.....

No problem with documenting findings in the appropriate place. Yes our charts are discoverable. However contacting law enforcement directly violates the patient's trust, and interest (remember, we're patient advocates).
If the LEOs are not on scene and stuff is found, they will be called and invited over to join us, and receive said contraban. I would consider that contacting them directly.... and within our rights to do so. Would that be accurate?

I find it morally and ethically suspect that anyone would report things they find out because they are granted access to parts of people's lives that are normally hidden due to their need for medical care. This makes EMS job harder (patients are less willing to be honest) more dangerous (patients will go to further extremes to hide minor criminal activity from EMS if they think it will be reported) and discourages those that are not entirely on good terms with the law from calling EMS (patients suffer). None of which is acceptable in my mind.

Most of the time, the pt did not call us there. The rare times they have, its because they know they messed up and need help. They already lie to us, they cover stuff up... so we have adjusted our assessments to account for that. LEOs are always involved with it here, and there have been times we have had them admit to things while the officers are within ear shot. That is the way it falls for them. These patients don't want us there, the friend or family that called us does.... or the bystander that found them gorked out under the bridge. So the drug addicted husband no longer routinely calls us for his wife who OD'd on prescripts because she was mad... and he makes up a story about how she is diabetic and initially was a medical call, and we ask him about the empty pill bottles... and the assessment shows something else going on... he gets defensive... cops are called, they are now labeled and the cops come out each time now... she responds to narcan and pukes all the way to the ED... she hates me, he hates me.... <sigh>. Lost there trust? Yup. Did I try to help them? Yup. Did I offer avenues of substance abuse and family counciling? Yup. The LEOs do the same.... the Nurses offer the same opportunities... and do they do it? Nope. They lost my trust. Are my call stats 1 less than last month... probably.
I guess there are so many factors, that no one solution will work for these calls.

Your choosing your "system" over the patient.
Im choosing to help the pt, and not allowing them to play the system against me


Our number one role is health care.
Absolutely

Being a patient advocate goes along with this. Letting any "public safety" role you have distract you from that is, in my eyes, failing your patients and profession.

There is no distraction, it puts the entire call in perspective.

 

[MasterIntubator]

What specifically is immoral about not reporting drug use to LE?
.

I was referring to the post: "Personally, if I find drugs on a patient I'm either going to ignore it or deposit it in the nearest trash can. I generally don't care for prohibition." on page 3. Which most of my replies have been based on. Not so much on Johnny crackhead who wrecked his car trying to get to White Castle, and was being honest on his recent history.

Hopefully this was a sarcastic remark...

 

[JPINFV]

I was referring to the post: "Personally, if I find drugs on a patient I'm either going to ignore it or deposit it in the nearest trash can. I generally don't care for prohibition." on page 3. Which most of my replies have been based on. Not so much on Johnny crackhead who wrecked his car trying to get to White Castle, and was being honest on his recent history.

Hopefully this was a sarcastic remark...

Nope, I wasn't being sarcastic. Is it possible that there are other ways that a patient with elicit drugs could find themselves on an ambulance for reasons other than DUI? If Johnny Crackhead also has an allergy to bees and gets stung, should I honestly care that Johnny Crackhead has a fresh baggy of crack on him? As long as Johnny Crackhead isn't neglecting any children that he has, isn't driving, or basically isn't doing anything illegal outside of illicit drugs, should I care that on a legal level Johnny is a crackhead?

 

[MasterIntubator]

..... if I come across it in assessement, it will be turned over. If the LEOs are not on scene, it will be shown to hospital staff and security where to find it on that person. It won't be ignored. Now of course.... that does not change much on my handling of him... unless those bees were invisible to everyone else.

It does involve a little more paperwork, and chain of custody documenting. But thats ok.

Guess to each's own.

 

[emt seeking first job]

If the person has $, I assume he will appeal:

http://www.greenburghny.com/cit-e-access/webpage.cfm?TID=10&TPID=2853

What if the above EMS agency responded to the scene ?

http://scallywagandvagabond.com/201...nced-jail-time-for-prescription-pill-forgery/

What about a patient stealing her MD's prescription pads ?

You could argue the MD should have secured them from the patient, the patient stole them and used them to get drugs because of a psychitric disorder....

The MD should have treated the patient, not prosecuted...

You can argue the issue either way, IMHO.

 

[usalsfyre]

http://www.greenburghny.com/cit-e-access/webpage.cfm?TID=10&TPID=2853

What if the above EMS agency responded to the scene ?

The of 4th and 5th amendment issues if they tried to function as law enforcement while treating a patient boggle the mind. I would imagine they pretty well stop acting as law enforcement when they contact someone as a patient.

[ttp://scallywagandvagabond.com/2011...nced-jail-time-for-prescription-pill-forgery/

What about a patient stealing her MD's prescription pads ?

You could argue the MD should have secured them from the patient, the patient stole them and used them to get drugs because of a psychitric disorder....

The MD should have treated the patient, not prosecuted...

You can argue the issue either way, IMHO.

Different situation entirely. Coming across confidential information during treating a patient doesn't equal theft, any way you slice it. Not to mention if the patient admittied the theft to ME, I still wouldn't pass the who what and how to PD, however I would alert the MDs office that their scripts had been comprimised and they need to take approprite action.

 

[crazycajun]

..... if I come across it in assessement, it will be turned over. If the LEOs are not on scene, it will be shown to hospital staff and security where to find it on that person. It won't be ignored. Now of course.... that does not change much on my handling of him... unless those bees were invisible to everyone else.

It does involve a little more paperwork, and chain of custody documenting. But thats ok.

Guess to each's own.

So let's say you find drugs on me doing your detailed exam in the back of the unit. Can you prove they are mine? Nope. Can you prove you didn't try to plant the drugs on me? Nope. Can the LEO's charge me with possession without seeing me in possession of the drugs? Nope. So after all is said and done I am going to file a suit against you for defamation of character and Mental Anguish. I will also sue whomever you work for as you are a representing agent of that company. Is this really worth it?

 

[MasterIntubator]

I say bring it on. I have strong legal representation and a few tricks. A counter suit really hurts. That person better have some strong facts to make that ball roll in my court. Not gonna allow someones games interfere with the way we conduct business.

 

[CAOX3]

So let's say you find drugs on me doing your detailed exam in the back of the unit. Can you prove they are mine? Nope. Can you prove you didn't try to plant the drugs on me? Nope. Can the LEO's charge me with possession without seeing me in possession of the drugs? Nope. So after all is said and done I am going to file a suit against you for defamation of character and Mental Anguish. I will also sue whomever you work for as you are a representing agent of that company. Is this really worth it?

Someones been watching to much Matlock.

To win a defamation of character suit, you have the burden of proof, they don't have to prove they didn't plant it on you, you have to prove they did.

Good luck with that. If it did somehow find the inside of a courtroom, which it won't, wheres the evidence? Whats the motive? They have nothing to gain by planting dope on you and any hundred year old traffic court judge will be able to figure that out in a about five minutes.

Once the case is tossed, they will sue you and they will win because see now they have evidence, a baseless lawsuit filed by you. So when your done, you will have enormous fees and a settlement amount hanging around your neck.

Before your family Is living in the back your ford escort because I now hold the deed to your house. You have any more bright ideas?