Combative Patients

ReebTop

Forum Probie
20
0
0
So last night was another milestone in my EMS career: first time I've ever had to get into a physical altercation with a patient. Who is now going to be up for charges of aggravated assault on EMS personnel and assaulting a police officer. Oh, and violating his probation. Way to go, skippy.

But we won, so whatever :)

I can go into the story if you'd like, but I'd really like to hear everyone's opinions on engaging in fisticuffs with (usually drunk) patients.
 

firecoins

IFT Puppet
3,877
17
38
So last night was another milestone in my EMS career: first time I've ever had to get into a physical altercation with a patient. Who is now going to be up for charges of aggravated assault on EMS personnel and assaulting a police officer. Oh, and violating his probation. Way to go, skippy.

But we won, so whatever :)

I can go into the story if you'd like, but I'd really like to hear everyone's opinions on engaging in fisticuffs with (usually drunk) patients.
Mazel Tov! Happy Bar Mitzvah! Your man now!:p

go into the story!
 

KEVD18

Forum Deputy Chief
2,165
5
0
it happens. you try to talk em onto the stretcher. try to get em to be nice. but at the end of the game, if your not cooperating you get pc's and put down hard. been there, many times.
 

DT4EMS

Kip Teitsort, Founder
1,225
3
0
OP
R

ReebTop

Forum Probie
20
0
0
Well, we get called out for a mouth injury. Turns out it's a drunk guy from Newark who wandered over and got jumped. Abrasion to the forehead, missing a tooth, bleeding from the mouth. He's very agitated as we pull up, shouting at the cops (one monstrous officer and a sarge who seems just about done putting up with this guy.) When we arrive, he loses it. We calm him down a bit, but when we ask him to get on the ambulance, he decides it's a good time to start struggling with my partner.

Which is a mistake, because my partner knows how to handle himself and drops the guy by grabbing left wrist and neck and pushing. He almost gets physical in the bus on the way to the hospital (I was driving) but doesn't start fighting again until we try to get him to sit in a wheelchair so we can bring him in. Once more, he gets put on the ground, and at this point nobody involved has any more time for this moron. We wheel him inside, I go up to the desk to tell them to call security and get 4 point restraints ready. This is when I hear a bunch of yelling from across the ER and look just in time to see the patient take a swing at my partner and the cop. I go running over, one of our coworker EMTs is running after me, my partner and the cop floor the guy hard. I dive on top of him and put him in a headlock, and the skel gets cuffed. He's shouting about how he "didn't do nothin' " and the security sargeant is asking me if the patient is under arrest. I say, "well, he just assaulted an officer, so, yeah" and go about my business. We stand the guy up to walk him over to the bed, he pulls away from us, stumbles, and goes face-first into an oxygen cylinder. Busts his lip up, starts bleeding everywhere, but that took most of the fight out of him.

And that's the tale, as best I can tell it without visual aids.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

premedtim

Forum Lieutenant
107
0
0
Well, we get called out for a mouth injury. Turns out it's a drunk guy from Newark who wandered over and got jumped. Abrasion to the forehead, missing a tooth, bleeding from the mouth. He's very agitated as we pull up, shouting at the cops (one monstrous officer and a sarge who seems just about done putting up with this guy.) When we arrive, he loses it. We calm him down a bit, but when we ask him to get on the ambulance, he decides it's a good time to start struggling with my partner.

Which is a mistake, because my partner knows how to handle himself and drops the guy by grabbing left wrist and neck and pushing. He almost gets physical in the bus on the way to the hospital (I was driving) but doesn't start fighting again until we try to get him to sit in a wheelchair so we can bring him in. Once more, he gets put on the ground, and at this point nobody involved has any more time for this moron. We wheel him inside, I go up to the desk to tell them to call security and get 4 point restraints ready. This is when I hear a bunch of yelling from across the ER and look just in time to see the patient take a swing at my partner and the cop. I go running over, one of our coworker EMTs is running after me, my partner and the cop floor the guy hard. I dive on top of him and put him in a headlock, and the skel gets cuffed. He's shouting about how he "didn't do nothin' " and the security sargeant is asking me if the patient is under arrest. I say, "well, he just assaulted an officer, so, yeah" and go about my business. We stand the guy up to walk him over to the bed, he pulls away from us, stumbles, and goes face-first into an oxygen cylinder. Busts his lip up, starts bleeding everywhere, but that took most of the fight out of him.

And that's the tale, as best I can tell it without visual aids.
*scritches his head* Granted alcohol makes it easier to do stuff you have your mind on, but it doesn't remove judgement, so I'd have to say that's one of the dumbest people I've ever heard of. Tries to act like billy badass and now is going to spend a couple years in prison for jumping a cop. What an idiot. Good riddance, society doesn't need him.
 

Stevo

Forum Asst. Chief
885
3
18
he pulls away from us, stumbles, and goes face-first into an oxygen cylinder. Busts his lip up, starts bleeding everywhere
and here i thought O2 couldn't hurt anyone....silly me....

~S~
 

premedtim

Forum Lieutenant
107
0
0
Ha!! That's Great! I love it!!!!!

BTW premedtim,

The first thing ETOH affects IS judgment. It is documented in numerous cases.
I didn't say it didn't affect judgement, I said it didn't remove it. Of course your judgement is affected but it's not completely incapacitated. I can be drunk as hell but it doesn't mean I'm going to jump someone and try to kick their *** for no reason. That's clearly a sign of some judgement still existing. Ergo if his affected judgement compelled him to jump a cop, his judgement wasn't that good to begin with.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nycxice13

Forum Lieutenant
132
0
0
I fear the day I come across someone who takes a swing at me while Im trying to help them... Im gonna be soooo screwed.
 

Epi-do

I see dead people
1,947
8
38
Unfortunately, it seems like this happens more often than it should. Granted, there are situations where a confrontation is unavoidable, but typically, I don't think that is the norm. We, as care providers, need to be better at avoiding tunnel vision when it comes to helping our patients and realize there comes a point where it is in your best interest to bail out. I think this happens to everyone at some point if you stick around in this business long enough - I know it has happened to me. I was fortunate though that neither my partner or I were seriously hurt. It all goes back to the mantra we were taught the first week of class - "You can't help someone else once you become part of the problem." I am not saying tunnel vision is what happened with this particular incident since I wasn't there. I'm just taking it as an opportunity to remind everyone to be careful out there.

I am curious though, if this patient was intoxicated and had already shown that he was beligerant/aggressive and struggled with your partner, why was he not under arrest and restrained at that point? Maybe I am misunderstanding something here, but it sounds like he wasn't arrested until after arriving at the ER and assaulting a cop and your partner (again).
 

DT4EMS

Kip Teitsort, Founder
1,225
3
0
Being intoxicated isn't against the law. It is actions around the intoxicated state
that get people in trouble.

True as it may be that it is not the "norm" for EMS to be assaulted, it still happens at a rate much higher than that of the average LEO.

IN my 11 years on the street as a police officer I never had to fight a "sober" person. I was always able to talk them (sober person) out of it.

In EMS most of the time the "attacker" is one of the "5 D's" (Drunk, Drugged, Diabetic, Derranged and Domestic).

Anytime you are dispatched to one of these type of calls you should be extra careful. Scene safety is ever changing. A scene that was initially safe can turn violent at anytime.

Do yourself a favor and have a mental plan for when things go south. Police officers receive constant training on Survival Mindset. EMS rarely, if ever get it at all.

Being a victim is not "just part of the job". There are many things that can be done to avoid it. But if attacked you can use "reasonable force" to defend yourself. You need to know and understand this. I have spoken to several EMS providers that were fired for not truly understanding what "reasonable" was.
 

Firechic

Forum Lieutenant
195
0
16
It was mentioned that he already had an abrasion to the forehead and teeth missing/ bloody mouth. Besides protecting yourself and your partner, did you think that the patient could possibly have a head injury. That might have caused the unexplained belligerent behavior.
 

Nycxice13

Forum Lieutenant
132
0
0
I have spoken to several EMS providers that were fired for not truly understanding what "reasonable" was.
And that is where I will be screwed, I have studied Brazilian jiu jitsu for about 10 years, if someone goes to strike me, im going to hurt them, its reaction at this point.
 

Stevo

Forum Asst. Chief
885
3
18
DT,
i think those leather restrains we carry are ridiculous. i;m not sure if they are kkk-1822 required or not, they take too long to apply. Especially in light of how fast our bro's in blue can cuff someone

~S~
 

firecoins

IFT Puppet
3,877
17
38
And that is where I will be screwed, I have studied Brazilian jiu jitsu for about 10 years, if someone goes to strike me, im going to hurt them, its reaction at this point.
you a balck belt yet?
 

mfrjason

Forum Lieutenant
230
0
0
We got a call one time for a guy who had a head injury from being hit with a bottle,what they neglected to tell us was that it was part of an assault and we showed up before the cops even got there cuz it was around the corner from our station. The cops did eventually show up but still we should of been told that he was an assault victim so that we could of had a better idea of what we were walking into.
 

firecoins

IFT Puppet
3,877
17
38
first degree
you may need to give me some lessons in it. I once attended a Royler Gracie seminar but I haven't need able to commit to training. BJJ is just awesome.
 

Nycxice13

Forum Lieutenant
132
0
0
you may need to give me some lessons in it. I once attended a Royler Gracie seminar but I haven't need able to commit to training. BJJ is just awesome.
I really want to get into Muay Thai kick boxing,.thats probably the next thing Im going to do, but the closest school with any real rep to me is Sityodtong up in Mass.
 
Top