Chemical agent effects

Household6

Household6

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I think this has some valuable information, and very relevant material.. It's 194 videos taken during the Sarin gas MCI in Syria that shows the inside of the (I don't know if you could call them hospitals?) triage and treatment areas.

This collection is extensive, but these vids do show the effects of chemical agents on all ages of humans in great detail. Also shows an incredible amount of cross contamination, and dangerous behaviors by those who are treating the sick.

Not many people outside of combat areas see things like this. And in the past there has been no way of recording and sharing this kind of information. We're limited to the paperwork that the CDC publishes, and our textbooks. It seems to me that as hard as some of these might be to watch, us emergency personnel should use this as a learning experience to prepare ourselves mentally and emotionally for a worst case scenario.

All politics aside (and I mean that), this is informative and important for us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUGrW-SjjbU&list=PLPC0Udeof3T4NORTjYmPoNCHn2vCByvYG
 
NBC warfare. My old stomping ground.

One of their physicians was on NPR the other morning news time. On the second day they started losing staff to contamination, and most others including himself were experiencing symptoms.
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We were taught if you used 2-PAM Cl and atropine you were alright, and the agent cleared after a while. We now know (after the Aum Shinrikyo attacks) the damage is often permanent (when not outright lethal) and the counteragents are not harmless (as seen in Tel Aviv residents who used them when the first air raid sires sounded for incoming Scuds at DESERT STORM). We were taught this so we would keep operating as long as possible after being attacked instead of quitting, retreating, or lying down to die (in some cases prematurely).

But we mobility 2E (now "Role 2"?) medical people were taught that a contaminated pt was basically a dead pt, would have to undergo decon and there were no real facilities to do that, SCPSM notwithstanding.

http://library.enlisted.info/field-manuals/series-2/FM8_10_7/APPD.PDF

http://9websites.com/airforce/scps.htm

And this doesn't touch on blister agents, such as used by Saddam Hussein in the late Eighties on his own citizens.

Good one. Applicable to chemical HAZMAT and CHEMTREC situations.


(One of or older threads about chem warfare:

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=17724
 
Watched most of them. Classic nerve agent s/s.

This is graphic evidence that chemical warfare is in no way "better" than atomic weapons except it is much less wholesale when it comes to whole countries.

Obviously with this sort of influx there is no way to adapt a conventional treatment facility, and due to permanent damage from the agent any patient requiring resuscitation is actually "Expectant" and is robbing time and materials for other patients, as well as endangering the staff.

BTW, if you recognize the words over and over "Allahu achbar", that's the equivalent of a very fervent "My God!" in European. As in a call for help.
 
Definitely some good footage for identifying sings and symptoms. Out of curiosity, has anyone on here participated in any of the CDP drills down in Alabama? I'd be curious to get their input on how their experiences compared, or how prepared they feel.
 
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mycrofft said:
One of their physicians was on NPR the other morning news time. On the second day they started losing staff to contamination, and most others including himself were experiencing symptoms.
===============================================
We were taught if you used 2-PAM Cl and atropine you were alright, and the agent cleared after a while. We now know (after the Aum Shinrikyo attacks) the damage is often permanent (when not outright lethal) and the counteragents are not harmless (as seen in Tel Aviv residents who used them when the first air raid sires sounded for incoming Scuds at DESERT STORM). We were taught this so we would keep operating as long as possible after being attacked instead of quitting, retreating, or lying down to die (in some cases prematurely).
Click to expand...


Do you happen to have any suggested readings on the topic of chemical agent antidote use, etc.?
 
EpiEMS said:
Do you happen to have any suggested readings on the topic of chemical agent antidote use, etc.?
Click to expand...

I was working from mostly classified (not SECRET, but of potential intel value) so I didn't keep anything. I'll dig around.

If you find material about treating organophosphate insecticide intoxication, it will have value. I know there are some anecdotals out on that, including the kid with the malathion pants which actually was made into a "House, MD" episode.
 
Here's a quick and dirty one

EpiEMS said:
Do you happen to have any suggested readings on the topic of chemical agent antidote use, etc.?
Click to expand...



Forget about it being a "non-persistent" agent. Agents can be weaponized by being adsorbed onto powders which can be dusted about like flour, or they can even bind to resins which, like pine sap, will "skin over" and wait for someone to brush them for days or more. Depends on how soon they may want to move in, or if they want to basically sterilize the area for all human activity for awhile. A long while.

Ambulatory decon is by wiping off gross agent material and shuffling boots in a Fuller's earth "kitty box"; moving to the next area, stripping down leaving only the mask on; the next station is being scrubbed with hot water and soap, maybe a bleach solution, then rinsed off; and the mask removed in the next clean area. Everything is considered to be a potential gas source (I've seen it happen with tear gas!), but some like the mask and the rubber boots and gloves etc can be deconned with "supertropic bleach" (chlorine), rinsed, and stockpiled for reuse.

They devised litters which could have water squirted from below and above, or above and it drained away, basically plastic chain link fencing, but it forced agent into the skin, so it was not kept. The agent in a wound not to mention a dressing could be enough to off-gas and kill people trying to treat the casualty.
 
A "short" reading list

EpiEMS said:
Do you happen to have any suggested readings on the topic of chemical agent antidote use, etc.?
Click to expand...

title_mricd_1.jpg



http://www.jmedcbr.org

http://www.jmedcbr.org/issue_0801/Mousavi/BMousavi_9_11.html

http://www.jmedcbr.org/issue_0801/DDisraelly/DDisraelly_12_10.html

http://www.jmedcbr.org/issue_0801/Dishovsky/Medical_Mgt_of_CB_Casualties.pdf (Bulgaria)


http://www.jmedcbr.org/archives/CBMTSIII/cbmts3-4.pdf

http://www.jmedcbr.org/archives/books/biological_terrorism_and_traumatism1.pdf ( Bulgaria again)

http://www.jmedcbr.org/issue_0801/McLoughlin2010.pdf
 
Thanks, mycrofft! Appreciate the resources!

Here's hoping I never need to use this knowledge.
 
The videos have been removed. Anywhere else to see them?
 
ghost02 said:
The videos have been removed. Anywhere else to see them?
Click to expand...

Gosh darnit, that was a great collection too because it showed how they were treating and deconning.

Well mycroft, it looks like you've supplied me with my reading list today, I'm supposed to be doing pathophysiology bookwork.
 
I think just the first vid was deleted
 
Could someone post a link to an operable one? I can't seem to find one.
 
Tough to watch, but good to know. During an MCI, how does one ensure that one remains sanitary? It just seems impossible!

Also, are nurses trained how to triage these kinds of things?
 
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ghost02 said:
Tough to watch, but good to know. During an MCI, how does one ensure that one remains sanitary? It just seems impossible!

Also, are nurses trained how to triage these kinds of things?
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1. It is basically impossible. Much fresh air, drain away wash water, decon as much as possible before care, wear barriers and have gigantic quantities on hand and made readily available and disposed of.

2. Nurses are not trained in triage as a matter of course. I learned some as a med tech, some as a civilian EMT, and some as a disaster preparedness officer, but nothing as an integrated whole pointed at chemical weapons.
 
Hmm, this is quite a glaring hole in preparedness. I am surprised these kinds of things aren't given more attention.
 
ghost02 said:
Also, are nurses trained how to triage these kinds of things?
Click to expand...

Nurses aren't focus on triaging MCI incidents in school. They triage 2, 4, 8 patients in a hospital setting. ER nurses are more capable. NBCR is not a regular part of most RN schools and is emergency specific. By the same right, most EMS personel have no triage training beyond the START algorithm or their local protocol and very are trained in CBRNE, generally only being so by seeking out special training or bringing it from a previous military career.

ghost02 said:
Hmm, this is quite a glaring hole in preparedness. I am surprised these kinds of things aren't given more attention.
Click to expand...

Remind me again how often American civilian healthcare deals with a CBRN patients? How much time should we spend training for a number that approaches zero per year?
 
More likely scenario here (hopefully) is CHEMTREC or HAZMAT incident.
 
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