Care provided to know or suspected addicts/seekers and the care they recieve.

Basermedic159

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This is a discussion very close to my heart and am curious as to what other medics do when they encounter these type pt's. Is addiction a disease or self initiated problem-or both? Should EMS be able to treat and addicts pain/anxiety, or should we assume they are faking only to "score" narcotics, and possibly leave someone who is actually having pain and or anxiety untreated?

Should EMS have a role in education of the public as well as EMS personel on treating these very common pt's that we come in contact with frequently?

Like I said this is very close to my hear and I have a keen intrest on this subject, as I have seen these problems with friends and family members. Even when you are a medical professional, things like this still hit you on a personal level, leaving you asking your self, how can I actually help?
 
Based on my limited knowledge of addiction, it appears to me to be a self-initiated disease of sorts. The individual chose to start abusing drugs, alcohol, etc, and is therefore responsible for their subsequent addiction. One cannot simply...walk into a vague statement as to whether or not we will treat drug addicts just because we suspect they may be drug seekers. We must treat on a case by case basis and use our knowledge to determine the best treatment for the patient. Some may be seeking drugs, some may have legitimate pain, and others may be doing both, and that's where things get complicated for us.

I like to be rather liberal with narcotics when I give them, however, I don't just pass it out to everyone who complains of pain. I don't approach every situation with the skepticism that someone may be seeking drugs, because to me, that approach will only lead to more patients with legitimate pain being left untreated. If someone appears to legitimately be in pain, then I'll probably give them a little something, but if they're sitting there telling me that they're experiencing 10/10 pain while texting their friends, then I'm not giving them anything. But, that is a different discussion.
 
Based on my limited knowledge of addiction, it appears to me to be a self-initiated disease of sorts. The individual chose to start abusing drugs, alcohol, etc, and is therefore responsible for their subsequent addiction. One cannot simply...walk into a vague statement as to whether or not we will treat drug addicts just because we suspect they may be drug seekers. We must treat on a case by case basis and use our knowledge to determine the best treatment for the patient. Some may be seeking drugs, some may have legitimate pain, and others may be doing both, and that's where things get complicated for us.

I like to be rather liberal with narcotics when I give them, however, I don't just pass it out to everyone who complains of pain. I don't approach every situation with the skepticism that someone may be seeking drugs, because to me, that approach will only lead to more patients with legitimate pain being left untreated. If someone appears to legitimately be in pain, then I'll probably give them a little something, but if they're sitting there telling me that they're experiencing 10/10 pain while texting their friends, then I'm not giving them anything. But, that is a different discussion.

I think thats one of the largest concerns in any medical profession, especially when it's in the emergency setting. Defining who is in legitimate pain and who is faking or both. Alot of medical providers are aprehensive to prescribe narcotics these days, because of the growing number of abuse. I just wish there was more for us as EMS providers to do for these type patients in terms of treatment. I do not like when other medics or ED staff sterotype patients because they are "frequent fliers" in the ED. Some legit pain pt's dont have the resources or money for the treatment of their pain, and turn to EMS and the ED to alleviate an exacerbation of chronic pain or for chronic pain untreated. Either way I try not to judge my patients and believe what they tell me, but there are "warning signs" that I look for also. As you stated above, a pt with 10/10 pain is not going to be texting,talking on the phone, naming drugs by name, dosage and route. The only time I want to hear a pt telling me what pain meds works for them best, is when I ask them "what normally works best for your pain?" Then i'll go from there.
 
This is a discussion very close to my heart and am curious as to what other medics do when they encounter these type pt's. Is addiction a disease or self initiated problem-or both?

Doesn't really matter, but probably both. I think most (all?) of us judge a lot (all?) of our patients. But ultimately, why this person is a drug addict, and whether it's an issue of dopamine neurobiology or free will, is largely irrelevant.


Should EMS be able to treat and addicts pain/anxiety,

Yes. But I think most of us are going to be less willing to give pain medication / benzodiazepines to these patients if we judge their symptoms to be minor / borderline.

Part of the problem is that many systems have narcotic analgesia or nothing. When there's an option for po tylenol or IV toradol, it's probably a much better choice for some presentations.

or should we assume they are faking only to "score" narcotics, and possibly leave someone who is actually having pain and or anxiety untreated?

I don't think that should be our default assumption just because someone's an addict. That being said, I don't think you're ever going to get in trouble for denying a known addict analgesia, unless there's a clear fracture, or some sort of objective evidence of injury / disease.

The danger here is in the borderline cases, where the paramedic has a "suspicion", or a "feeling" that the patient is drug-seeking. Here it's easy to let other factors bias the decision. It seems like some providers are more likely to call someone a "drug seeker" if they're poor, live in a bad part of town, have psychiatric issues, etc. Or if they ask for a specific narcotic by name, e.g. "last time I had kidney stones, morphine worked really well". This is both potentially drug-seeking behaviour, or a reasonable thing for someone who has had chronic kidney stones to be telling a healthcare provider.

Personally, I think we should have a fairly low threshold for analgesia, and accept that we're going to get caught every now and again by someone seeking drugs.


Should EMS have a role in education of the public as well as EMS personel on treating these very common pt's that we come in contact with frequently?

Well, right now, most paramedic programs are taught by paramedics, so I think it's likely we'll continue to teach each other. And, I imagine a lot of us have been involved in talking to high school students or parents about the risks of drug use or drink driving. I think some of this is valuable. The average person is more receptive to an emotional story about a paramedic's personal experience than looking at a range of confidence intervals and t-tests.

But I don't think we have any need to be doing more than that. I'd argue that we don't have any particular expertise in this area. I remember spending a day or two at an addictions center, and an inner city homeless shelter during paramedic school, but I can't say that we talked about addiction counselling or treatment in any depth.

Like I said this is very close to my hear and I have a keen intrest on this subject, as I have seen these problems with friends and family members. Even when you are a medical professional, things like this still hit you on a personal level, leaving you asking your self, how can I actually help?

I don't have much to suggest beyond the normal, not being judgmental, treating everyone with respect until they give you a reason not to, sort of platitude.

Some of the better run programs for school kids or for parents seem like a decent investment of time. But I've seen some of them run very poorly.
 
Is addiction a choice or a disease? I think both. I think when you choose to take these drugs (prescribed or otherwise) for reasons less than intended you get used to it. Then you end up needing it on one level or another.

When you meet these pts some are in a state of crisis. Some are in a perceived state of crisis. Some are actually faking. What are our responsibilities? Merely to determine if the complaints are physiologically true. If can prove in black and white that they are telling you the truth, then treat. If you can prove in black and white what they are telling you is false, then don't treat.

You are going to be mislead. You are going to fall for it sometimes. It is what it is. Advocate for your pts. That's all you can do.
 
Worked for 20 years where pain control became a huge issue and where addiction/detox were a big part of the business. (Inside joke there; the two became very related :rofl:)

During the short time PEMS has a pt, treat life and limb then discomfort/pain. Using the short time before the pt arrives at a hospital to punish someone (pushing naloxone when drug intox is not an issue to the "major malfunction", denying care otherwise delivered to other pts with similar complaints) is tempting, but probably illegal and against the ethics of the profession. Low class.

I learned to get the objective while listening to the subjective (starting as soon as you can see the pt), obviously document them, then press on with your care. If the pt does not want the treatment you have deemed necessary, while she/he can refuse care, they cannot force you to treat against your professional judgement; if you can discover and document no reason for a treatment, don't give it.

Explain your diagnosis but don't give them an item by item list of findings (as in "If you really had a cervical nerve impingement we would see XYZ and you don't have them"), it is unnecessary and delays true care if needed. Just say "I just don't see it, but I do see things indicating you have JKLosis and I can treat you for that". If they want to argue, tell them you don't see that, you cannot legally treat for a condition you do not see, and would the pt want someone doing that to them? Or their Mom?

Drug addicts have vegetative valvular disease, hepatitis related issues, abscesses, potential bloodborne diseases, dental disease (like a mandibular abscess communicating to the surface through the skin), malnutrition, polypharmacy, and many other real medical issues; heads down, assess and document and allow the pt to refuse if you don't give what they want.
 
Where to begin?

At the beginning...

I read the replies, but think I would like to start here.


Is addiction a disease or self initiated problem-or both?

It is social pressure that leads to destructive coping mechanisms that have a negative impact on life. The "addiction" can take many forms, socially acceptable drugs like nicotine, caffeen, and alcohol, street drugs, prescription drugs, high risk sexual activities, unlawful activities, and all manner of unhealthy life style.

Many diseases are self inflicted. Arteriolsclerosis doesn't appear from magic. On top of that there are also occupational diseases, environmental diseases, etc. Generally people don't choose to be diseased.

However, at some point all of these desctructive behaviors actually do create pathology. Which is a medical issue.

It is foolish to think you can treat the medical issue without addressing the social stressor. It just leads to an endless loop of rehab and relapse until rehab is no longer part of the loop. Very rarely because it is successful.

There is also the rehab issue of the legal system. It is tough to break relapse when a criminal record prevents a person from bettering their situation.



Should EMS be able to treat and addicts pain/anxiety, or should we assume they are faking only to "score" narcotics, and possibly leave someone who is actually having pain and or anxiety untreated?

Pain demonstrates a pathological process. Either you are going to attempt to treat a pathologica process or you are going to do nothing.

However, choosing to do nothing needs to be based on medical necessity, not moral conviction.

Should EMS have a role in education of the public as well as EMS personel on treating these very common pt's that we come in contact with frequently?

EMS should always have a role in public education.

As for treating these patients, I expect it is just a matter of time before resources are allocated to numerous agencies in order to keep these patients out of the emergency system due to the high cost. Unfortunately in the US, people right now seem to be focusing on idealology rather than practicality, so there will be a delay prior to rational heads prevailing.

Even when you are a medical professional, things like this still hit you on a personal level, leaving you asking your self, how can I actually help?

Everyone can be helped, but not everyone can be saved. Palliative care is help.

But I suggest that the area that people can help the most with is social pressure. Only when social pressure is reduced can the medical treatment actually work.
 
All we ever have are the same discussions.

When was there an original one that actually got any attention or nearly the responses?

The one I linked is multiple pages and was last posted on in the past week. Seems it got lots of attn.
 
The one I linked is multiple pages and was last posted on in the past week. Seems it got lots of attn.

yea, but it is not an original thread.

We must have discussed this topic dozens of times, I remember arguing with ventmedic over it.
 
yea, but it is not an original thread.

We must have discussed this topic dozens of times, I remember arguing with ventmedic over it.

Yes I agree it is a very old subject. I just do not see why a person already posting in the one I linked starts the exact same discussion again. Makes no sense.
 
Yes I agree it is a very old subject. I just do not see why a person already posting in the one I linked starts the exact same discussion again. Makes no sense.

Because I had a discussion with him about bumping old threads, so he started a new one. No problem there.
 
Yes I agree it is a very old subject. I just do not see why a person already posting in the one I linked starts the exact same discussion again. Makes no sense.

There are several different things in here you haven't covered, that I wanted to see other providers opinions.:excl:
 
Thank you all for the posts! There is alot of different opinions from the members that I enjoyed reading. I will probably post more on this subject as well as other topics tonight. However I am getting ready to take a power nap after coming off a 36 hour shift. I just wanted to say thank you for your insight to this discussion. :D
 
The only time I want to hear a pt telling me what pain meds works for them best, is when I ask them "what normally works best for your pain?" Then i'll go from there.

Actually I find palliative care patients, cancer patients, and patients who are being treated for chronic pain issues can usually do this quite well.

I had a patient some years back who called 911, when we showed up he said he just needed a ride to the hospital to get some morphine. He ran out of his prescription and could not drive because of his brain tumor.

I saw his prescription bottle for 90mg morphine 2x daily.

For all intents and purposes he called 911 to seek drugs.

(I got on the phone with med control and dosed him with 45mg of IV morphine over 20 minutes, he was most greatful because we helped him)

But what if it wasn't a brain tumor. What if he said

"I need morphine not to go into narcotic withdrawel"?

Does that change anything medically?

No. It can still be a life threatening event that winds up using ICU resources over a prolonged period.

As I mentioned earlier, when you are in a medical role, you provide indicated medical care, you do not withold medication because you feel the person is faking, seeking, or not in enough visible distress. Your opinions of those states are not of concern.

I advocate using objective findings for pain, however, I also realize that some groups (particularly East Asians) need permission to express pain in their culture. If they do not receive it, they will deny pain no matter how bad it is.

As well, when I was in arson investigation class, I remember the instructor saying "always remember bad things happen to bad people."

Such is true, just because the person is a drug dealer doesn't mean his house fire is arson.

Just because a patient is a drug abuser doesn't mean they don't have pain.

What is your next treatment of moral conviction, decideding not to treat the obese chest pain patient because their McDonalds diet caused their problem and they did it to themself?
 
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