Backboarding question.

[downunderwunda]

Just to let you know:

LBB is just a splint that we just happen to use as a transportation device.
A scope or stokes stretcher are transportantion devices.
A ked or short spine board is an extrcation device.

Why do you use a LBB as a transportation device?

& I hope you know the difference between a KED & short spine board.

 

[emtfarva]

Why do you use a LBB as a transportation device?

& I hope you know the difference between a KED & short spine board.

because, when I have a code on the third floor of a house and you have to bring the person down the stairs and cont. cpr, I use a LBB. Most other times when you are taking c-spine precautions it becomes a splint. Yes I do know the difference between a ked and a short spine board. A ked is a little easier to put on. and most of our short spine boards are used as cpr boards anyway.

 

[chfite]

"non-english speaking,..." with the complaint of neck pain. How could one not immobilize him? A competent assessment is impossible and informed refusal incredible.

Chris

 

[downunderwunda]

Most other times when you are taking c-spine precautions it becomes a splint.

Have you read any of this thread & seen that it is not used as a spline effectivley?

The effective spint is the KED used in combination with a c-collar.

not a C-Collar & attach to a spine board.

 

[BossyCow]

Wy,

it is interesting that you do not use a KED more when you have been very adamant about reducing spinal movment. A cervical collar only provides about 35% reduction in movment, but when combined with a KED this increases to 85%. Maybe it would be worth re evaluating your procedures & using a KED rather than a LSB for transport.

A KED is not designed for transport. It is an extrication device only.

 

[downunderwunda]

A KED is not designed for transport. It is an extrication device only.

Actually, a KED is designed to remain insitu until the patient is in hospital, a LSB is an extrication device not a transport device.

To allow for transport with a KED, simply losten the leg straps, not that difficult & still provides 85% immobilisation to the entire spine.

 

[Veneficus]

as just a thought, maybe we could all strap a KED on a volunteer, then strap another volunteer to a spine board and see what works better?

 

[emtfarva]

A KED is not a transport device. It has only one purpose, to extricate someone from a vehicle or tight space. When you move them from the vehicle you have to place them on a LBB. It is not a splint because you have to place with a LBB. Which by the way is a splint. A LBB has many purposes. We used to take C-spine precautions, to immobilized the hip with possible fx, we have to use it with a traction splint to immobilize the hip also. I also use to move Pts from upper floors to the ground level. We use it for codes. And in the winter time we will use it for sleds or snowboards. A scope or stokes stretchers are transport devices.

 

[CAOX3]

I would have to disagree the KED remains in place until arrival at the hospital. Therefore it is a transport device.

It also serves as a great immobilization device for children. Used it multiple times before we began getting pediatric immobilization equipment.

 

[triemal04]

as just a thought, maybe we could all strap a KED on a volunteer, then strap another volunteer to a spine board and see what works better?

Quoted because this should be the end to the discussion on whether or not a KED can be used as a stand alone device. If you really think it does not do a better job of immobilizing the spine that a longboard you have never used it right. Period.

 

[BossyCow]

Absolutely, just because it remains in place during transport doesn't make it a transport device. By that criteria, so would a bandage or dressing.

 

[Veneficus]

Quoted because this should be the end to the discussion on whether or not a KED can be used as a stand alone device. If you really think it does not do a better job of immobilizing the spine that a longboard you have never used it right. Period.

I figured since there was an intense debate on this matter that a scientific experiment would be in order.

I don't think a LSB immobilizes anything. It just makes the EMS provider feel like they are doing something.

 

[downunderwunda]

It has only one purpose, to extricate someone from a vehicle or tight space.

emtfarva,

let me quote you some statistics again. Immobilisation with a c-collar provides 35% immobilisation to the spine, when used in conjunction with a KED there is an 85% immobilisation of the spine. To me this says it has more than one purpose, that is

to extricate someone from a vehicle or tight space.

Does this not show that it has splinting (immobilisation) value also?

No one has been able to show in this thread what level of immobilisation is provided using a long back board. Long Back Boards are uncomfortable & in reality, the discomfort caused on the patient is more likley to cause them to move to try to get comfortable.

The challenge is out there. I am not talking full studies, just show how, as I have shown, the level of immobilisation by using the equipment. I have tried & been unable to find any data on the reduction, or immobilisation offerred by a LBB. Put simply this is yet another myth that goes into the vault of EMS mythology - WE WILL TEACH IT BECAUSE WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT SO IT MUST BE RIGHT!

 

[downunderwunda]

It also serves as a great immobilization device for children.

Turn it upside down & it is actually a good splint for bilateral femurs.

Oh wiat, let me quote someone else

you have never used it right

Let me put that full quote in context

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veneficus
as just a thought, maybe we could all strap a KED on a volunteer, then strap another volunteer to a spine board and see what works better?

Quoted because this should be the end to the discussion on whether or not a KED can be used as a stand alone device. If you really think it does not do a better job of immobilizing the spine that a longboard you have never used it right. Period.

triemal04, see my post above. I use it correctly.

 

[triemal04]

triemal04, see my post above. I use it correctly.

Ok...I have no clue what you are trying to get across in your last post. KED=good, with or without a longboard. KED=a piece of equipment that does not always need to be used in conjunction with a longboard. In fact, it could be said that KED=better than a longboard.

 

[CAOX3]

Absolutely, just because it remains in place during transport doesn't make it a transport device. By that criteria, so would a bandage or dressing.

See the second part of my post.

A Ked can be used alone, not in conjunction with another piece of equipment, therfore it is a transport device.

 

[emtfarva]

#1 What does KED stand for?
#2 ok you are right you can consider the KED a splint.
#3 A KED is not a transport device. A stretcher is a transport device, an ambulance is a transport device. A LBB is a splint. We tend to use to transport a Pt from one spot to another but that is not what it is was intended to do. It was intended to be used a ssplint for spinal immobilization or whole body immobilization. I use it for unconscious and unresponsive Pts. I always suspect a spinal or head injury with these Pts. We use it for codes because our scoops are no good for codes. We have the old metal ones. While we are transporting the pt to the ambulance or stretcher we can continue CPR.

I don't care how effective a LBB or KED is at immobilizing. I am telling you what the devices are designed for. A long board and KEDs are splints. A KED is a extraction device. A scoop and stokes stretchers are transport devices.

 

[CAOX3]

I believe you stated earlier you carry codes down stairs on a back board, Does that mean you were transporting someone with a splinting device?

If you want to mince words here. You can use a ked as a stand alone immobilization device. I have been doing it for years. Sometimes there is no right or wrong answer.

 

[Veneficus]

What is the purpose of a driveway?
What is the purpose of a parkway?



Sorry, couldn't resist the play on words.

 

[emtfarva]

I believe you stated earlier you carry codes down stairs on a back board, Does that mean you were transporting someone with a splinting device?

If you want to mince words here. You can use a ked as a stand alone immobilization device. I have been doing it for years. Sometimes there is no right or wrong answer.

yep, and yes i do use a splint as a transport device