There's a difference though, these comments were made specifically to slander and defame the EMT specifically. This isn't the type of example where someone says something and it gets taken the wrong way. The Lt's intent with those comments was to harass her; just not to her face.
Aurora FD for the win
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escapedcaliFF
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The second someone claims a hostile work environment everyone freaks out no matter the serverity. I was making a point that political correctness in this country is out of control. There is a double standard nowadays. Case in point look at the lesbian fire captain who made her engine go be part of the gay parade and anyone who didn't go was written up. She never had to answer to it. It's taking the fire crew bringing a class action lawsuit for anything to get done. I would rate that well beyond the seriousness of this. However if it was a female Lt. making these comments about a male EMT nothing would be done or said.
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If it was reported, it absolutely would be dealt with. Municipalities cannot afford to ignore sexual harassment claims. Now whether or not a male FF would feel comfortable reporting it and bucking the traditional firehouse culture (see what I did there?), is a completely different question.
It's painful that people keep defending this incident. Say what you want about political correctness, this is not and would never have been correct.
escapedcaliFF
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I'm only defending it from a standpoint that complaing to the media is never a solution. I'm not saying it was ok for the Lt. said but I hate when outside forces inject themselves into situations. I think the EMT should of reported it properly through the department EO and of not gone to the media. I just hate the fact that now that it's been brought to the media outside forces will now force the department to take actions againts the Lt. that will ruin his career. If the EMT reported it properly odds are it would of been handled as outlined in the departments sexual harrasment guidelines by mandatory classes for the Lt. or whatever else they deem appropriate.
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And you know that the EMT in question went straight to the media because how exactly? Nowhere in the story does it say how this came out, and to suggest that she is somehow to blame for it coming out is also disingenuous. Furthermore, there is nothing to say that the fire department has handled this unfairly.
That's ok. You keep stay in your hole and keep digging. It's almost big enough now.
That's ok. You keep stay in your hole and keep digging. It's almost big enough now.
escapedcaliFF
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Just making a point. We don't know the whole story cause the media never tells the whole story. I am asuming things as she was quoted by the media. For all we known the Lt.'s engineer went to the media. We can arm chair quarterback it all day. Just keep in mind there are always two sides to a story and the media will never tell the whole thing as they are driven by ratings.
SandpitMedic
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This forum is getting really really whiney lately.
People get on their side of an issue. Then they defend it vehemently without even considering alternative points of view - observably the indoctrinated liberal points of view - and then proceed to make insults and counter accusations that their opposition is entrenching themselves, baseless, irrelevant, ignorant, or arrogant.
I'm getting sick of it. Quit being pansies. You (that's a general you) are not always right, and your opinions (while your entitled to them) are sometimes ridiculous. That said, they should be respected by your peers even if they are obtuse. Not saying we all need to be playing patty-cake here, and I love and encourage a great debate, but there is a real big world outside of the little minds on this forum, metaphorically speaking.
Some of us need to remember that and get down off of those high horses.
People get on their side of an issue. Then they defend it vehemently without even considering alternative points of view - observably the indoctrinated liberal points of view - and then proceed to make insults and counter accusations that their opposition is entrenching themselves, baseless, irrelevant, ignorant, or arrogant.
I'm getting sick of it. Quit being pansies. You (that's a general you) are not always right, and your opinions (while your entitled to them) are sometimes ridiculous. That said, they should be respected by your peers even if they are obtuse. Not saying we all need to be playing patty-cake here, and I love and encourage a great debate, but there is a real big world outside of the little minds on this forum, metaphorically speaking.
Some of us need to remember that and get down off of those high horses.
SandpitMedic
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I'm not stepping into that mud. I'm just saying. You all need to respect each other's opinions, and realize everyone is not going to conform to your ideas, ideals, or agenda - whatever they may be.
Defending someone is fine- taking to the level of insulting another to do so is not fine. What you so vigorously define as sexual harassment is subjective! Remember that. Some of us call that BS and remember the old adage: sticks and stones.
Defending someone is fine- taking to the level of insulting another to do so is not fine. What you so vigorously define as sexual harassment is subjective! Remember that. Some of us call that BS and remember the old adage: sticks and stones.
escapedcaliFF
Forum Lieutenant
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Don't you mean "sticks and stones will break your bones but high explosives solve everything?"
Are you saying that someone's opinion that sexual harassment on the job is OK and should be respected? Are you implying that a fire lieutenant who openly makes sexual remarks about coworkers should be respected and his "opinion" (aka sexual harassment, hostile workplace) is fine?
escapedcaliFF
Forum Lieutenant
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I don't remember anyone saying sexual harrasment was fine. You are definitely taking things out of context.
OP
OP
LACoGurneyjockey
Forum Asst. Chief
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Mkay, so let's shame her into leaving her employment. Sounds good.
Got it, sexual harassment is a joke.
"But I have a black friend, I'm not racist" seems to apply here.
So you didn't say it was fine. But you did say it was a joke.
If we were taking things out of context, it would look like this.
escapedcaliFF
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I never said sexual harrasment was a joke. I was saying those classes the army had where a joke I never said I personally would shame her into quiting.
SandpitMedic
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Sticks&Stones. Plain and simple.
The U.S. EEOC defined sexual harassment as follows: (bold is mine)
Sexual Harassment
It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.
Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.
Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.
Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).
The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.
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SO! As stated. I view the remark as a one time off-handed vulgar comment , not as a sexually harassing remark.
It is subjective. And you guys should not get your panties all wadded up.
Am I saying a true blue leader should be saying those things: NO!
Am I saying that sometimes people make mistakes, and that sometimes some people just need to move on and not get so offended by the slightest things.
Apparently no one else remembers the adage I was referring to:
Sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you!
And newsflash! People (men :]) are going to say stupid stuff. All the time. Regardless of whether it's illegal or against policy.
Is that right?! No. Does that matter? Also, no!
I challenge any one of you to set up some kind of recording in your ready room or station and within about 5 minutes you'll likely have enough "sexual harassment" material to put on a seminar.
The U.S. EEOC defined sexual harassment as follows: (bold is mine)
Sexual Harassment
It is unlawful to harass a person (an applicant or employee) because of that person’s sex. Harassment can include “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.
Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.
Both victim and the harasser can be either a woman or a man, and the victim and harasser can be the same sex.
Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).
The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer.
_____________
SO! As stated. I view the remark as a one time off-handed vulgar comment , not as a sexually harassing remark.
It is subjective. And you guys should not get your panties all wadded up.
Am I saying a true blue leader should be saying those things: NO!
Am I saying that sometimes people make mistakes, and that sometimes some people just need to move on and not get so offended by the slightest things.
Apparently no one else remembers the adage I was referring to:
Sticks and stones will break your bones, but words will never hurt you!
And newsflash! People (men :]) are going to say stupid stuff. All the time. Regardless of whether it's illegal or against policy.
Is that right?! No. Does that matter? Also, no!
I challenge any one of you to set up some kind of recording in your ready room or station and within about 5 minutes you'll likely have enough "sexual harassment" material to put on a seminar.
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YAY! Chimpie gets to clean out another thread.
UPDATE: The thread has been cleaned up and name calling and off topic posts have been removed. If the thread continues to go down that path, the thread will be closed and warnings issued.
Please abide by our rules (emtlife.com/rules) and our expected standards of conduct.
UPDATE: The thread has been cleaned up and name calling and off topic posts have been removed. If the thread continues to go down that path, the thread will be closed and warnings issued.
Please abide by our rules (emtlife.com/rules) and our expected standards of conduct.
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Mufasa556
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It has nothing to do with being taken the wrong way; the problem isn't that someone misunderstands a comment and gets offended, the problem is that people get offended (or claim to) at the drop of a hat these days, and we, as a society, are pandering to that, instead of collectively rolling our eyes and telling people to quit whining and grow up.
Again, the incident here isn't the best example of that; what the guy said would be understood by pretty much all reasonable people to have been inappropriate given the setting, and he is deserving of some type of discipline (and apparently would have got it except he retired instead). But the public response to this is far out of proportion to the actual incident. Which, quite sadly, is the standard thing to do these days.
As is the tactic of saying that opinions that differ from the offended party don't matter. For this type of problem (being ultra PC vs not) the opinions of people who don't get offended easily, if at all, are just as important as the people who do and claim harrassment or mental cruelty or what have you for any and every percieved slight.
Kevinf
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I would think calling another emergency worker the village bicycle is worthy of getting offended about past, present, or future. He better hope he can prove it if she sues for defamation/slander. Aside from that... why is it worthy of comment? Are all of us not allowed sexual freedom? Just not the women in emergency services? Would this Lt have called a man "the village bicycle"? I doubt it. If you are going to say something that could get you in a world of trouble if said publicly, you damn well better be sure it's said in private! This is the problem and fault of the lieutenant and nobody else. I wouldn't expect to keep my job if I called another person the village bicycle for all to hear.
I don't think people get offended too easily these days either. Back in the day, his comment would have ended with pistols at dawn when her family found out what he said. Let's keep it real. He slandered a colleague and it wound up on national news because it's a stupid and lousy thing to say about anyone.
Better for us guys too, this knucklehead is discouraging women from being sexually open (that's bad for us gentlemen, no?). Good riddance!
I don't think people get offended too easily these days either. Back in the day, his comment would have ended with pistols at dawn when her family found out what he said. Let's keep it real. He slandered a colleague and it wound up on national news because it's a stupid and lousy thing to say about anyone.
Better for us guys too, this knucklehead is discouraging women from being sexually open (that's bad for us gentlemen, no?). Good riddance!