AMA w/ETOH On Board

ShotMedic

Forum Crew Member
Messages
60
Reaction score
0
Points
6
So I have been faced with this situation a lot. I get on-scene of an incident where the Patient has consumed alcohol anywhere from 1 drink, to way passed anything I thought was humanly possible... Each presenting in their own unique mental capacity. In my local protocols it states a patient can sign AMA (against medical advise) if they are not impaired By drugs or Alcohol..... Now here is where I need some help from some of you legally versed posters. Although I believe the use of common sense is key...with the backing of the Base hospital on radio of course to CYA. But it always leaves me un-easy.

1. In EMS how do we soundly judge one's impairment.
2. Do you have any local protocols/tools related to judging impairment (BACs, breathalyzers )
 
Are they acting appropriately and able to reasonably consider the consequences of their choices? Would you be comfortable letting this person take care of themselves? Would a disinterested third party agree with you?

If the answer is no to the above, and the patient is still belligerent/refusing care, is law enforcement willing to assist you in taking custody of a patient? I recently had a patient that didn't fit the above criteria, but the LE on scene had no intentions of helping us control the patient. As such, he signed a refusal, the LE witnessed, and it was documented as such.
 
1. In EMS how do we soundly judge one's impairment.
2. Do you have any local protocols/tools related to judging impairment (BACs, breathalyzers )

I have my mouth and my ears. In general, that should do the vast majority of work, or else ambulances should be driving around at 2am forcing everyone over an imaginary BAC limit to go to the hospital.
 
Yeah I agree fully with your questioning, documentation and I definitely like your use of the LEO, this thread was actually sparked from a convo I had with my good friend who is a sheriff. If someone can spend the night in jail and lose there drivers license from operating a vehicle with a certain BAC % even if it is 0.03%. At what percentage does your judgment to make your own medical decisions cut out. And if i leave the scene and the patient goes on to Drink more and something goes wrong (again) how am i supposed to prove he was more sober before?
 
If someone can spend the night in jail and lose there drivers license from operating a vehicle with a certain BAC % even if it is 0.03%.
So someone can make their own decisions at 0.07, but not 0.08? It should also be noted that, in general, under the influence laws are a lot like speed laws. There's a statutory limit (0.08 in California), as well as a judgement limit (unlawful to drive under the influence), which is analogous to "safe speed for conditions" speed laws. So if you're at 0.03 and swerving all over the road, you could still be charged with a DUI.


At what percentage does your judgment to make your own medical decisions cut out. And if i leave the scene and the patient goes on to Drink more and something goes wrong (again) how am i supposed to prove he was more sober before?
Documentation. What's stopping anyone from signing AMA and then getting plastered? To me, this is like when people argue that patients with psychiatric illnesses shouldn't ever be allowed to sign AMA "just in case."
 
So we respond to a casino for a 54 yo female syncopal episode. Patient is now Alert and appropriate. slow to answer questions but able to. No trauma witnessed patient slumped over in the chair at the black jack table. Patient has urinated on themselves. Patients vitals signs are stable 12 lead unremarkable BGL is great orthos negative stroke negative. Patient does not want to go to the hospital. Patient states she wants to go back up to her hotel room and sleep. Patient admitts to consuming 3 1 pint long islands. No other family or friends there with her.
 
Hx of HLD, HTN, Fibro Rx of atenolol, simvastatin, vicodin no allergies no recent illnesses
 
The problem with a simple case presentation like this is it in no way tells me anything about the patient's capacity.

Over what time period were the 3 Long Island Ice Teas consumed? 20 minutes? 2 hours? 24 hours?

Is the patient slurring her speech? Is there other signs of intoxication such as ataxia?

Does the patient show understanding ("What does this mean to you? Could you repeat back to me what I just said?") the risks and benefits of refusing transport?
 
within the last 2 hours, patient has very minor slurring of the speech, patient shows understanding of the risks and complications of refusing transport, and benifits. Patient is able to stand on her own with out help and gait is ok.
 
If it's as described I don't see a problem with allowing refusal, but know ALOT of paramedics who would be scared fecesless to do so.
 
If the patient's vitals are in tact and they aren't complaining of any injuries after a complete assessment without any findings. We will let someone sign for them; family members, friends, cops, etc. But a doc has to allow us to do that.
 
Wow... Loaded question.

As a College EMS Agency Lieutenant, this is a huge issue for my service. We use the PBT reading that the police have obtained to help guide our assessments... but the root of the refusal is determining that the patient is CAOx4 and able to understand the risks of refusal. If they are alert, oriented, and understand the risks... then they can refuse.

Sometimes we involve OLMC in the decision tree, sometimes we don't. I've had some folks that blow greater than a 0.2 that I let refuse, and I've had folks less than 0.08 that have been told they need to go by the ED doc.

If they aren't CAOx4 and can't understand the risks of refusal... then it gets interesting.

Jon
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Independent judgement... the difference between a technician and a profession...

Not Exactly sure how that helps this particular discussion out but Thanks?

And Jon Have you ever asked the Police to do one if they havent already obtained one?

I definitely for see this topic biting one of us EMS Professionals in the butt, if it hasn't already yet.
 
Not Exactly sure how that helps this particular discussion out but Thanks?

I simply find it odd when EMS providers, as a whole, complain about judgement calls (those gray areas), but, again as a whole, demand to be recognized as a profession.
 
I simply find it odd when EMS providers, as a whole, complain about judgement calls (those gray areas), but, again as a whole, demand to be recognized as a profession.

"Good judgment in EMS is learned over years of patient encounters and usually by making mistakes. Try to learn from those who have been doing the job for a while--pick their brains to learn tricks of the trade. You can probably name these individuals right now; most people working in EMS know who they are.

Experience is something that cannot be taught in a classroom, but must be obtained by actually doing the job. Utilize all the resources available to you to develop the best methodology and style you can. And know your limitations, so you can anticipate potential problems and be prepared to overcome them."

David P. Keseg, MD, FACEP, is medical director for the Columbus Division of Fire EMS in Columbus, OH.http://www.emsworld.com/print/EMS-World/Judgment-Calls/1$14817

Just trying to better my judgement on-scene, and pick your brains on here and add a few more tricks to my paramagician box
 
Wow... Loaded question.

As a College EMS Agency Lieutenant, this is a huge issue for my service. We use the PBT reading that the police have obtained to help guide our assessments... but the root of the refusal is determining that the patient is CAOx4 and able to understand the risks of refusal. If they are alert, oriented, and understand the risks... then they can refuse.

Sometimes we involve OLMC in the decision tree, sometimes we don't. I've had some folks that blow greater than a 0.2 that I let refuse, and I've had folks less than 0.08 that have been told they need to go by the ED doc.

If they aren't CAOx4 and can't understand the risks of refusal... then it gets interesting.

Jon

I also struggle with this greatly, and is has been the discussion of many hours of meetings with our Medical Director.

The assessment of a patient who has consumed alcohol and is a candidate for a refusal MUST include questions/history of:
-- Number of drinks (1/2 is very different than 10/12)
-- Size of Drinks (shot, solo cup, bottle, etc)
-- Type of drink (Champagne is absorbed very differently than beer, or vodka) Mixed?
-- Time of first drink (as precise as possible)
-- Time of LAST drink (as precise as possible)
-- Last Oral Intake
-- Presence of other substances (Prescribed or other drugs)
-- Location of consumption, methods of locomotion, accompaniment with friends.
-- History of slips, trips and falls while intoxicated.
-- Any other trauma (full physical exam)

The assessment cannot be hinged on measures such as "odor of alcoholic beverage about person", or merely the number of drinks consumed.

The reason we are so obsessed with timing is because of the BAC curve. BAC and Absorption (and decay) within the body is impacted not only by physiological factors (sex, weight, etc), how regularly the patient consumes alcohol, by food in stomach, medications, presence or absence of carbonation in beverage, proof of beverage, volume of beverage, and most importantly the rate of consumption.

In a smaller woman, drinking 8 oz over an hour will spike the BAC to 0.15 or so, and it can take up to 8 hours to drop back down to 0. Drinking those same 8oz in 2oz increments over 4 hours will make the BAC peak at .10 or so.

There really isn't a fool-proof way of calculating BAC, because it has so many variables.

In a fasting state, >50% of EtOH will be absorbed within 15 minutes, with peak at about 20 minutes, and 80-90% of complete absorption will be achieved after 30-60 minutes.

Although the alcohol concentration initially lags behind that in the blood, CSF concentrations remain high, however, even after BAC begins to drop. While it's absorbed effeciently, it is not metabolized or eliminated as well. Clinically significant BAC levels are reached rather quickly (30-60 minutes), BUT THE BAC CONTINUES TO RISE UP TO AN HOUR AFTER THE CESSATION OF DRINKING.

In your assessment, you must also be aware of other diseases that mimic intoxication, such as other medications (Rx or otherwise), hypoglycemia, head trauma, seizure, infection, hypoxia, electrolyte imbalances, nearly any psychiatric condition, etc.

Your disposition decision must include an assessment of the patient's capacity to ambulate (assisted or unassisted, what would they do if there were a fire in the building), capacity to get to a bed and sleep it off, presence of friends or responsible party (sober), vitals (alcohol is a diuretic, can lead to dehydration), perhaps including BGL, history, physical exam, continued airway protection, etc.

Ultimately, you also have to look at, or for treatment. Most intoxicated patients at the hospital simply receive a bag of saline, and the ability to sleep off their intoxication. If the patient is of reasonably sound mind, and has people to take care of them, sometimes the best solution is to release them in the care of the responsible party.

With all of the above said, I will admit, I do allow for alcohol refusals, fairly often. I work on a college campus, and frankly, students sometimes call unnecessarily. Many of my patients don't need an ALS ride to the ER and a bag of fluid, but simply to go to sleep.
 
"Good judgment in EMS is learned over years of patient encounters and usually by making mistakes. Try to learn from those who have been doing the job for a while--pick their brains to learn tricks of the trade. You can probably name these individuals right now; most people working in EMS know who they are.

Experience is something that cannot be taught in a classroom, but must be obtained by actually doing the job. Utilize all the resources available to you to develop the best methodology and style you can. And know your limitations, so you can anticipate potential problems and be prepared to overcome them."

David P. Keseg, MD, FACEP, is medical director for the Columbus Division of Fire EMS in Columbus, OH.http://www.emsworld.com/print/EMS-World/Judgment-Calls/1$14817

Just trying to better my judgement on-scene, and pick your brains on here and add a few more tricks to my paramagician box
Yes, experience can't be taught, but experience and the ability to exercise judgement are not the same. The schools that are teaching their students that the presence of any intoxicant means implied consent are doing their students, and their subsequent patients, no good. Your school should have gone over how to determine capacity as the ability to interact with patients is not just based on post education experience.
 
Not sure if you read my original post. but you might wanna give it a once over so we can stay on track here.

I never stated my school had taught me that any presence of an intoxicant indicated impairment to make sound medical decisions. In-fact I have not mention my schooling once? I mentioned my Local protocols in which i operate under. Am I green Paramedic? sure. I am just trying to figure out how to draw a better line so I can protect myself and my fellow colleagues from lawsuits (not that having a definitive line would do that). My school did teach us what most people here are saying. I just want a little more in my report then some objective and subjective info.
In the case of the patient i mentioned Earlier, I did not take her against her will to the ER.... to take a hospital bed from some other patient who could have had better use for it. She signed our AMA, I explained to the MICN that the patient had consumed ETOH but was not impaired by it. Patient Passed the Road test and went with security to her room where i assume she slept it off since no-one was called back out. Now can i get sued for my actions that night? i wouldn't doubt it. Can I lose that lawsuit? i wouldn't doubt it. If I had a BAC% or a uniform scale to follow could i still be in hot water? i wouldn't doubt it.
 
Back
Top