Albuterol with no Hx of Asthma

LiLMizEmT

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Okay... this has been on my mind now.... about 2 days ago, i had a call with

a pt with low BP... okay. so we get there and her bp is 80/40, when i took

her vitals she was on a first albuterol treatment on 4Lpm via nrb. i asked the

nurse if she had a hx of asthma, and she sed no... soooo i took the mask off

and gave her my 02 at 15Lpm... now.. i took a second set of vitals and they

jumped to 204/80.... via txp we had to suction her cuz she started to gag

and gurgle... MY question now is..... lets say u DONT have a hx of asthma

and ur given albuterol.. i was told that the bronci open up causing fluids to

go into the flungs possibly drowning the pt.... is this true? :unsure: please

someone put my mind at ease lol
 
Okay... this has been on my mind now.... about 2 days ago, i had a call with

a pt with low BP... okay. so we get there and her bp is 80/40, when i took

her vitals she was on a first albuterol treatment on 4Lpm via nrb. i asked the

nurse if she had a hx of asthma, and she sed no... soooo i took the mask off

and gave her my 02 at 15Lpm... now.. i took a second set of vitals and they

jumped to 204/80.... via txp we had to suction her cuz she started to gag

and gurgle... MY question now is..... lets say u DONT have a hx of asthma

and ur given albuterol.. i was told that the bronci open up causing fluids to

go into the flungs possibly drowning the pt.... is this true? :unsure: please

someone put my mind at ease
lol

No. You will not drown. Just because you don't have a history of asthma does not mean you won't get it. It also means you can just have an episode of bronchitits, or even a single episode of reactionary bronchospastic disease. You don't give Albuterol for asthma alone. You give it counteract bronchospasm.
 
Like he said, Albuterol=bronchodilator, so it is good for anything causing bronchoconstriction not just asthma. As far as the fluid part... I haven't heard of that, not sure how opening the bronchi would increase fluid in the lungs. What was the pt.'s Hx and who was giving the neb already?
 
think about this:

every pt that has a history of asthma at one point didnt, there first episode.

albuterol is a beta 2 agonist that causes relaxation of bronchial smooth muscle and peripheral vasculature, thereby causing bronchodialation. its given anytime you have symptomatic bronchoconstriction, regardless of asthma history.


the frequent myth about drowning pateints with albuterol comes not from a - hx of asthma, but a wheezing pt with chf. its often said that give them albuterol will drown then. BS BS BS!



(sorry for the spelling. my google toolbar is acting up)
 
To the best of my knowledge, Albuterol will actually dry out tissues. We've been told it's bad to give to a pt with Pneumonia because of this. Which doesn't make sense to me, because bacteria need a warm, MOIST environment to thrive.
 
Wild and Wackly World of Albuteral

The likely fulcrum this story teeters on is the history, the second is coincidentce.
Most likely the history received in handoff was incompletely given or listened to. The course of events you describe is really incredible.
Beta-2 agonists are used for reasons other than asthma, but not darn many unless you are going "off-label"*.
We've taken albuteral (and Alupent) MDI's out of dead people's hands. The pt's had cardiac issues, the albuteral made them feel more breathless, more albuteral,more breathless, more------------------flatline.


*Off-label includes spraying it onto cigarettes ans smoking it, and using it before any sports event as a performance enhancer..whch I suspect leads to some of these mystifying sudden basketball deaths at parks and schools. /FONT]
 
Paging Vent !.. It is obvious we need some clarrification and better understanding than what has been posted...

R/r 911
 
Paging Vent !.. It is obvious we need some clarrification and better understanding than what has been posted...

R/r 911

Double Double PAGING VENT!!!!!!!:excl::excl::excl:
 
I have just spent 32 hours at an Asthma educator conference in SF. Just when you learn to play the game they change the rules and all the meds. However, the good news is we are saving the ozone by going to HFA as the propellant in the MDIs.
http://www.asthmaeducators.org/

The phase out of CFCs in MDI is from the Clean Air Act and an international environmental treaty, the Montreal Protocol on Substances that Deplete the Ozone Layer.

Next month I get to learn all about the new meds and treatment plans for COPD. Lucky for me, many of the changes in EMS are also within my respiratory world such as transport vents, ETCO2 and interfacility issues for the technology and the meds.

I bet I get more CEUs this year than Rid. :)

A few news worthy items:

Combivent MDI still has been unable to reformulate from CFC and still has a soy lecithin base. This means patients with sensitivity to soybean products and possibly peanuts can have a reaction.

Atovent MDI is HFA so this is no longer an issue.

MaxAir will be the exception to the CFC ban...for now. It is a breath activated inhaler.
http://www.gracewaypharma.com/pdf/maxair_letter.pdf

DO NOT test how full an MDI canister is by floating it in water.

Many of the new MDIs now have counters on them.

There is no generic Albuterol at this time. (I am capitalizing Albuterol out of respect for it.) If you see a generic Albuterol canister (usually white) still in action, check the expiration date.

People will complain about the different in their new HFA inhalers because they have been used to the CFC propellant delivering a slightly cooler spray at a much faster speed.

The "2 finger widths from Open Mouth" technique is no longer advised with the new HFA MDIs. Closed mouth is acceptable and aerochamber is preferred.

Here's a great website, especially under the section that says "EDUCATION".

http://www.thoracic.org/

Here's another one with the new guidelines for Asthma, EPR3. EPR2 is still in effect but not for long. Right now the only thing that may change for EMS and EDs is the number of rescue puffs by MDI that is given in those areas.

http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/guidelines/asthma/asthgdln.htm

Because a person says they don't have asthma may mean they haven't been diagnosed with asthma....yet. They may not have been tested and may have been treated for something else. Spirometry along with excellent history notes will ensure the proper diagnosis. This is, of course, in response to other symptoms which may not be the typical asthma ones taught in EMS programs.

Unfortunately a good hx for asthma is rarely taken prehospital or in the ED. As EMTs and Paramedics, if you are in the patient's home, you can spot different allergens that may be triggering some response in the patient's airways. Was the home wall to wall carpeted? Pets? Smokers? Dusty environment? Occupation? Family history?

Meds? Was the patient being treated for sinusitis? Rhinitis? GERD? Overweight? OSA?

Those same questions apply to the pediatric population including the ones concerning gastric reflux, obesity and OSA.

Now for this scenario in the original post:
Nursing home?
How old was the patient?
Did the patient have a good SpO2 on a 4 (?) L neb? If so, why the 15 L NRBM? Usually an asthmatic won't desat until they are decompensating.
What were the breath sounds pre Albuterol and when the decision to remove the neb was made?
HR pre and post?
Was the 2nd BP taken while she was coughing and gagging?
Where both BPs manual or machine?
Did the nurse say what the pt's normal BP was?
What meds were on the patient's list?
Beta Blockers?
Medical history?
Did this patient have history of COPD?
Did the nurse take a temp? Rectally?
Was the patient responsive to verbal or any stimuli?
Did she have a gastric tube or had she just eaten?
Did she cough on request?
Nasotracheal suction or yankuer (tonsil tip) orally?
Recurrent PNA (pneumonia) especially due to aspiration?


Many times the NH patient that has had chronic aspiration issues will be on Albuterol nebs because someone will hear "wheezes" from the aspirated fluid which can also include saliva in CVA pts who have impaired swallow. The wheezes may also be from an inflammatory process or hyper-reactivity due to the irritating apirated secretions. If the patient was recently in the hospital for PNA, the Albuterol sometimes gets carried over on the transfer orders without anyone questioning it. And, sometimes albuterol gets ordered for everyone just because. Even in some EDs, it is used to give the physician a few minutes to get his/her plan of action in place or to fill a void between tests so the patient and family believes something is being done.


Beta-2 agonists are used for reasons other than asthma, but not darn many unless you are going "off-label"*.
We've taken albuteral (and Alupent) MDI's out of dead people's hands. The pt's had cardiac issues, the albuteral made them feel more breathless, more albuteral,more breathless, more------------------flatline.

Who prescribed the MDI inhalers? For what? What were the cardiac issues? Unfortunately for many respiratory patients, especially COPD, cardiac issues often come with the territory. Long term COPDers may have pulmonary hypertension and Cor pulmonale (enlargement and strain on the right side of the heart). They may become prone to supraventricular arrhythmias also.

Even in the much debated CHF and Albuterol threads, Albuterol is frowned on if the patient is have an MI. It is still given occasionally to a CHF pt without evidence of an acute MI if they have a history of COPD.

A quick search found 1 case study with Albuterol suspected of being the cause of an MI in an 84 y/o. However, the dose was 5 mg with 500 ug Atrovent q2 hours x 6 treatments.
http://www.theannals.com/cgi/content/abstract/38/12/2045

We could also get into a lengthy discussion about Albuterol and hyperkalemia but not on this thread.

Off label?

Exercise induced asthma (EIA) is fairly common and albuterol taken 15 minutes prior to exercise is highly recommended. Some athletes (and weekend warriors) don't like to consider themselves "Asthmatic" since their wheezing/SOB only occurs during exercise.

As far as it being performance enhancing, that is debatable. If your VO2 max increases after taking Albuterol, then yes it is performance enhancing. If you have been using someone's albuterol and felt you performed like you never have before, then yes your performance has, in a sense, been enhanced. You may also have been having bronchocontriction as a result of EIA in previous workouts and didn't know it. However, your physician may want to see your performance and check for EIA in the Pulmonary Lab before giving you your own prescription for Albuterol. Usually, if you have no bronchospastic component, Albuterol will not do much for you except for the side effects.

Many people become accustomed to be short of breath while blaming it on be out of shape or "deconditioned". Some may actually have some bronchospastic airways if put to the test via spirometry and treadmill.

As far as death, Asthma deaths are becoming more common. Albuterol by itself is not going to keep you out of trouble. If you have been non-compliant with your maintenance meds and ignore the warning signs, then albuterol may be fighting a tough battle. If the MDI was used incorrectly, not shaking it to mix, technique sucks improperly, expired or empty, then the albuterol MDI ain't gonna work.

Now that there are so many different MDIs on the market, many patients (and healthcare professionals) are going to be confused. Keep an eye out for what inhaler they were actually doing to break their difficulty breathing. It may not be a rescue inhaler. It could be a corticosteroid, long acting beta-agonist (LABA) or a combination of the two such as Advair or Symbicort. These could present as a problem if too much is taken and should be noted to the ED staff. Advair does have a counter on it.
 
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Great update!

:):)Awsome post Vent!!
 
Exceptional posts like that one should be stickied near the top for future reference and for all newbies to find easily.





Great job Vent!
 
Since the word "flooding" was used in the original post, there is an explanation and examples of that terminology on the ATS website under education. It is the link below entitled Basics of Respiratory Failure and Mechanical Ventilation.

ATS
www.thoracic.org

The link below offers a good review of respiratory A&P and gives an overview of Non-invasive and invasive ventilation. Even though some the later slides pertain to the ICU, if you do interfacility transport you may need to be away of patient positioning to prevent aspiration. An ETT does not necessary prevent aspiration. If the secretions get past the glottis, they're aspirated.

Basics of Respiratory Failure and Mechanical Ventilation
http://www.thoracic.org/sections/cl...itical-care/mechanical-ventilation/index.html


This link is good also:

Viral Respiratory Infections and Airway Diseases
http://www.thoracic.org/sections/ed...spiratory-infections-and-airway-diseases.html
 
Many times the NH patient that has had chronic aspiration issues will be on Albuterol nebs because someone will hear "wheezes" from the aspirated fluid which can also include saliva in CVA pts who have impaired swallow. The wheezes may also be from an inflammatory process or hyper-reactivity due to the irritating apirated secretions. If the patient was recently in the hospital for PNA, the Albuterol sometimes gets carried over on the transfer orders without anyone questioning it. And, sometimes albuterol gets ordered for everyone just because. Even in some EDs, it is used to give the physician a few minutes to get his/her plan of action in place or to fill a void between tests so the patient and family believes something is being done.

Yeah, that always got on my nerves back in my respiratory days. BTW, I'm going back to it part time, so I guess I'll need to keep that in check, huh?

Thanks for explaining it better than I ever could, Vent. You are awesome!
 
Vent, very informative. I have well controlled asthma and thought I was up to date. You gave some very good links. Thanks.
 
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