Advancing EMS & Paramedicine

[daedalus]

MrBrown, you have my full support in any endeavor to create a paramedic text book that is actually worth reading. I would buy it and promote it.

pilgrem, I also find it fairly stupid that the emergency medical paramedic workforce cannot help with he H1N1 problem. I have started to get involved in the local medical reserve for Ventura County and will be working o change this if I have time.

 

[VentMedic]

Good grief, this is getting ridiculous. You're just stimulus-response now. What "law" are you talking about? Paramedic scope of practice in every state includes IM/IN medication administration, every paramedic textbook ever published includes sections on proper techniques for doing this, and every paramedic program in existence (one hopes) teaches its students how to properly do this. Is it against the law for me to give my anaphylaxis patient IM epi?

Intramuscular or intranasal medication admin are not areas paramedics are lacking in education.

Or do you think that there's something about IM/IN admin that we don't know about.

Wow, it is all about the "skill" with you. Again, do you know how many people can do IM injections including the LPN and MA who both have more "hours of training" then the Paramedic. The difference is both know their roles as it concerns Public Health and don't whine if they aren't allowed to do something since they know where they stand with education.

Now because someone allowed you to do something as a "student" does not necessarily make it right. If an EMT student wants to intubate or needle a chest, I guess you would allow them to do that since it seems okay with you.

Ooh yeah, that sounds pretty involved. Asking people if they're allergic to eggs seems like something best left to the professionals

I guess you have pretty much proven my points and have shown your knowledge about vaccines. It is more than just poking a needle into someone's arm.

I'm simply saying they're not always on the side of advancing EMS either, for which the H1N1 thing in my area was simply an example.

If California EMS does not want to advance why should nurses do it for them? They can not make you get an education if so many of the EMS providers in CA do not want to. If they stated they wanted EMS providers to get an education and advance, can you imagine how that would go over? Sorry but get an education for EMS and then ask for the nurses to help out. You might also try to get all the Bubba county EMS systems to agree that education is good.


This is a website for California EMS.
http://www.emsa.ca.gov/

And this page addresses H1N1
http://www.emsa.ca.gov/about/H1N1/default.asp

This is the Department of Public Health for California. Again, you need to be familar with some of these statutes especially as their pertain to EMS, disasters and pandemics.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/Default.aspx

If a local public health/EMS agency wants paramedics to give vaccines then all they need to do is vote on it, write up a proposal to the state authority, and get it approved.

If you really understand this why are you complaining about the "RNs won't let us"?

Not that I disagree, but you do realize that the A&P section of the Essentials of Paramedic Care is meant as a review right? It's meant for people who've already taken college A&P.

A review for what? Not that many Paramedic programs in California require college level A&P. You stated yourself you took A&P after the Paramedic program The little book used as a supplement to even the college Paramedic programs is a job. The Paramedic mills such as AMR's is also a joke with their "Everything to know about A&P for the Paramedic in one easy week". Remember the minimum for California is only a little over 1000 hours of training.

Just face it. You are in California with one of the most fragmented and limited State EMS systems for Paramedics and EMTs. It hasn't changed in 40 years and probably won't except for doing background checks now. Even then a county medical director can override the system to allow a baby killer get a cert as an EMT.

This thread isn't about advancing EMS at all but about you getting your feeling hurt by a nurse.

Many EMS providers in other states do know their role for disaster management and pandemic including vaccinations. If they are not used for the vaccinations, they find out what other situations they will be utilized in instead of whining about ONE "skill" although important, it isn't the end of the world if Paramedics in California aren't giving vaccinations. With the shortage of the H1N1 vaccine in that state, there are more than enough RNs to give out what little there is.

 

[daedalus]

Vent, I know thegreypilgrim enough to know that he does not think that being a paramedic is all about skills. He is saying that, in a time of crisis or potential crisis, paramedics should be able to help out in emergency public health matters. In theory, paramedics are the perfect type of professional to deploy to combat a public health crisis. I think that you, I, and grey pilgrim all agree that paramedic education is currently lacking for us to take on that kind of responsibility. However, idealism should not be squashed.

However, I am sure that greypilgrim understands that inncoluating people against the flu or other viruses that pose a threat is more than sticking a needle in the arm. While LPNs and MAs can give these vaccines, paramedics should also be able to because we at least have the same education as them in the administration of IM medications, and hopefully paramedics also have enough physiology and pharm to understand the immunology of what they are doing, and understand the epidemiology the current crisis. I know that I have covered these topics in microbio, a&p, and paramedic school enough to know much more about H1N1 than a MA. It seems logical than, that I should be able to vaccinate people as well. (at this time, that may have to be under the direction of an RN until we give ourselves a seat at the table of Public Health).

Just face it. You are in California with one of the most fragmented and limited State EMS systems for Paramedics and EMTs. It hasn't changed in 40 years and probably won't except for doing background checks now. Even then a county medical director can override the system to allow a baby killer get a cert as an EMT.

This thread isn't about advancing EMS at all but about you getting your feeling hurt by a nurse.

Why the hostility? I think greypilgrim is a breath of fresh air in the southern california culture of idiots leading the blind that is EMS.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

Wow, it is all about the "skill" with you. Again, do you know how many people can do IM injections including the LPN and MA who both have more "hours of training" then the Paramedic. The difference is both know their roles as it concerns Public Health and don't whine if they aren't allowed to do something since they know where they stand with education.

*Sigh*
No, VentMedic it is decidedly not "all about the skills" with me. My whole point is, if paramedics are already qualified to give medications via this route then it isn't a very far cry to provide them with appropriate education on the risks, adverse effects, etc. of vaccinations to have them do it...or do you just not think paramedics are qualified to do anything?

Now because someone allowed you to do something as a "student" does not necessarily make it right. If an EMT student wants to intubate or needle a chest, I guess you would allow them to do that since it seems okay with you.

No, and let me tell you why. I was not "allowed" to give vaccines, I was authorized to do so - big difference. It was an express authorization - meaning the category of "vaccinations" was included in the list of medications paramedic students could administer in clinical internship. It was in writing, and it came from the state of California. Somewhat different than an EMT who gets "allowed" to intubate.

I guess you have pretty much proven my points and have shown your knowledge about vaccines. It is more than just poking a needle into someone's arm.

I honestly have nothing to prove to you. You don't know me, you have no idea about my knowledge-level of anything whatsoever (irrespective of medicine). I'm not going to sit here and, like a little child, show you how much I know. Get over yourself.

If California EMS does not want to advance why should nurses do it for them? They can not make you get an education if so many of the EMS providers in CA do not want to. If they stated they wanted EMS providers to get an education and advance, can you imagine how that would go over? Sorry but get an education for EMS and then ask for the nurses to help out. You might also try to get all the Bubba county EMS systems to agree that education is good.

I don't know if your misunderstanding is deliberate or accidental, but I never said I would like nurses to advance our education for us. What an absurd concept.

This is a website for California EMS.
http://www.emsa.ca.gov/

And this page addresses H1N1
http://www.emsa.ca.gov/about/H1N1/default.asp

This is the Department of Public Health for California. Again, you need to be familar with some of these statutes especially as their pertain to EMS, disasters and pandemics.

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Pages/Default.aspx

You really need to read your own links:

EMSA Role in the H1N1 Response:

* Provide guidance to local EMS agencies on airborne infectious diseases, personal protective equipment, and planning for staff absenteeism due to illness.

* Serve as an advisor to Governor Schwarzenegger’s administration on emergency medical response
* Administer the HavBed system, in conjunction with the Department of Public Health and the U.S. Health and Human Services Agency, to evaluate the availability of hospital facilities statewide.

* Prepare to deploy “Strike Teams”—Cal-MAT, Disaster Medical Strike Teams, Ambulance Strike Teams— upon request.

* Administer the Disaster Healthcare Volunteers system, in partnership with Cal Volunteers, to identify and pre-certify health and medical professionals to work in case of an emergency.

* If needed, deploy and manage Mobile Field Hospitals

* Provide authority and training to enable paramedics to administer vaccinations under local medical control and as part of the organized emergency medical system.

* Gather situational surveillance information from local EMS agencies regarding call volumes and issues of concern.

And there you have it. It was part of California public health's plan to have this done, so I don't know where you're coming from when you say that RN's are merely trying to uphold the law by arguing against paramedics being able to do this.

If you really understand this why are you complaining about the "RNs won't let us"?

I never said it was an issue of RN's "not letting us" do this. They have no legal authority to make that decision, it's not their call. However, as of yet no EMS service has any paramedics administering H1N1 vaccines. Why is that? Getting to the bottom of this requires a basic understanding of how lobby groups work. You know what those are don't you? Well, here in the golden state, nursing associations wield considerable lobbying power. So, even though it's not a case of "RN's won't let us do it", it kind of is because their lobby groups have been able to use their political capital to block this from happening. Get it now?

A review for what? Not that many Paramedic programs in California require college level A&P. You stated yourself you took A&P after the Paramedic program The little book used as a supplement to even the college Paramedic programs is a job. The Paramedic mills such as AMR's is also a joke with their "Everything to know about A&P for the Paramedic in one easy week". Remember the minimum for California is only a little over 1000 hours of training.

Yeah, I know but regardless of this fact that's what the authors of the book intended it to be.

This thread isn't about advancing EMS at all but about you getting your feeling hurt by a nurse.

Thanks for the psychoanalysis Dr. Freud. I didn't realize that in addition to your duties as a respiratory therapist you moonlighted as a clinical psychologist. You have no idea what my motivations are for anything I do, and it would behoove you not to speculate about such things. For the record though, I like nurses - as I've stated ad nauseam previously.

Many EMS providers in other states do know their role for disaster management and pandemic including vaccinations. If they are not used for the vaccinations, they find out what other situations they will be utilized in instead of whining about ONE "skill" although important, it isn't the end of the world if Paramedics in California aren't giving vaccinations. With the shortage of the H1N1 vaccine in that state, there are more than enough RNs to give out what little there is.

Go back and read some of the very links you provided me and you'll see what public health authorities are considering as the paramedics role in disaster medicine and pandemic management. Also, I'm not really going to lose any sleep over whether or not we do end up helping out with vaccinations. I merely am using this as an example of yet one more problem people who want to advance EMS face, and you're blowing it out of proportion.

 

[VentMedic]

Why the hostility? I think greypilgrim is a breath of fresh air in the southern california culture of idiots leading the blind that is EMS.

No hostility. I just hate whiney Paramedics who grumble about one skill and miss the big picture or the roles that EMS should be taking. If EMS has NEVER considered this participation in this one area, they either have other plans on their plate or some just didn't feel it was worth justifying taking EMT(P)s out of service to give vaccines.

Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. LPNs and MAs are not utilized in the innoculation process for a variety of reasons. However, they might be used in other areas. Just because a Paramedic can stick a needle into someone's arm doesn't mean that is the job they should be doing.

When Public Health statutes are formed, allocation of resources are considered. If all the FFs and Paramedics are tied up at clinics giving shots, who is transporting patient where there will be an increased call volume. As well, in times of disaster such as the hurricanes, we learned that even though the Paramedics were capable of giving vaccinations by statute that was not were they were needed. Some just need to look at the bigger picture of their state especially in California which could have another major earthquake. Would it not be better to allocate EMS to where they are needed in Public Health for that state? It might be different in Kansas or Oklahoma. Thus, those who just keep spouting at random really need to get involved in their state's planning committees for EMS to see where the budget, resources and other Public Health concerns lie.

He actually posted this from the link and I still believe he doesn't understand the greater roles of EMS and other providers.

EMSA Role in the H1N1 Response:

* Provide guidance to local EMS agencies on airborne infectious diseases, personal protective equipment, and planning for staff absenteeism due to illness.

* Serve as an advisor to Governor Schwarzenegger’s administration on emergency medical response
* Administer the HavBed system, in conjunction with the Department of Public Health and the U.S. Health and Human Services Agency, to evaluate the availability of hospital facilities statewide.

* Prepare to deploy “Strike Teams”—Cal-MAT, Disaster Medical Strike Teams, Ambulance Strike Teams— upon request.

* Administer the Disaster Healthcare Volunteers system, in partnership with Cal Volunteers, to identify and pre-certify health and medical professionals to work in case of an emergency.

* If needed, deploy and manage Mobile Field Hospitals

It does NOT mean giving vaccines is the sole responsibility of EMS. Thus the reason I provided the links for him. He is also welcome in Sacramento for an EMS advisory panel if he would like to see just how his state functions. I would seriously hope he can see the bigger picture and see that EMS has other functions to concern themselves with that they might be more qualified for. If their education was increased and their state protocols were expanded there might be more opportunities.

Thanks for the psychoanalysis Dr. Freud. I didn't realize that in addition to your duties as a respiratory therapist you moonlighted as a clinical psychologist. You have no idea what my motivations are for anything I do, and it would behoove you not to speculate about such things. For the record though, I like nurses - as I've stated ad nauseam previously.

I don't have to speculate on much as I have been a Paramedic and in EMS for 30 years. I have also been active in government issues and have heard all the same whining that you are doing right now. You talk and talk on an anonymous forum but have probably done little beyond that. I am also lucky that I do have experience as an RRT and do work with RNs both in EMS and in the hospital. I also have participated in a few disasters. Believe me when I tell you that there is much more to EMS than one or two skills that you seem to be so upset about. Don't let that paralyze you from seeing what else EMS is capable of or should be doing. Whining about an IM injection is not a sign of you understanding your own roles that are needed in a pandemic or disaster.

I know that I have covered these topics in microbio, a&p, and paramedic school enough to know much more about H1N1 than a MA. It seems logical than, that I should be able to vaccinate people as well.

daedalus,
Of course you have had those classes. You are going for med school. However, as an EMT in the state of California, you are still held to the standards of that patch and unfortunately that of the lowest 110 hour denominator. An MA does have many more hours of training and patient contact than that.

 

[daedalus]

daedalus,
Of course you have had those classes. You are going for med school. However, as an EMT in the state of California, you are still held to the standards of that patch and unfortunately that of the lowest 110 hour denominator. An MA does have many more hours of training and patient contact than that.

This is true. I also never considered taking medics off the rigs, and in Ventura that would leave little in the way of available paramedics. Perhaps in the future, the FD station might be a place the public can get their BPs and lipids checked, and vaccines administered. Since we all face economic hardship and cannot pay to staff a paramedic engine on every corner anymore just to have them BBQ and watch movies, maybe when they are not on calls they could be doing public health duties.

 

[Aidey]

Again you blame the RNs for following the law. Guess who would have to supervise the Paramedics at the Public Health clinics? The RNs. Even at the places here where the Paramedics did give the flu shots, the Public Health RNs oversee the whole process and were responsible for the education. It falls on their RN licenses when they are in that role of supervising others during this process regardles of what title you hold. Thus, RNs have every right to get pissy if they are given people who do not have the proper training or by law, do not have the right.

Um. Wrong, sorry. Where I worked Paramedics did not practice under the RNs license, we practiced under our own license or under the Doctor's license. The RN running the clinic may be legally responsible as a supervisor, but not medically. As I already stated, when they looked deeper into it, it was already legal for Paramedics to participate, it wasn't against the law at all, so I'm really not sure what law you keep blathering on about.

 

[VentMedic]

Um. Wrong, sorry. Where I worked Paramedics did not practice under the RNs license, we practiced under our own license or under the Doctor's license. The RN running the clinic may be legally responsible as a supervisor, but not medically. As I already stated, when they looked deeper into it, it was already legal for Paramedics to participate, it wasn't against the law at all, so I'm really not sure what law you keep blathering on about.

READ the post before you just flap your fingers.

Originally Posted by VentMedic
Again you blame the RNs for following the law. Guess who would have to supervise the Paramedics at the Public Health clinics? The RNs. Even at the places here where the Paramedics did give the flu shots, the Public Health RNs oversee the whole process and were responsible for the education. It falls on their RN licenses when they are in that role of supervising others during this process regardles of what title you hold. Thus, RNs have every right to get pissy if they are given people who do not have the proper training or by law, do not have the right.

Do YOU not understand the word supervise? Your medical director may be whose license you are working under but the RN's license will be in question if they allow you to do something to the patient that can cause harm while in their supervision. You would also be functioning under a Department of Public Health Act which can also change quite a few things. Things can changes and when you are asked to participate in a Disaster, it may not be the protocols of YOUR medical director that you will be functioning under.

If you have an EMT working on your truck that you know is not properly trained or is doing something wrong, YOU are responsible for that EMT if you were a Paramedic. If harm comes to a patient while this EMT is under your supervision, you may be reprimanded by the rules and regulations of your license as well as disciplined by your medical director. In fact, it will probably be your medical director that may ask the state to step in through a report that may need to be filed.

This thread is going nowhere because some here do not understand their own license, state statutes and their own limitations when it comes to supervision, Public Health and disaster management.

Wouldn't it be nice if some could actually carry on a conversation by mentioning their own EMS statutes, duties, officials, legislative committees and meetings that are held in their area that addresses what they could be doing or have ideas that could change what their role? Instead some insist upon bashing and blaming everything on nurses or whatever other medical professional they see fit and most of their facts come from "hearsay". How many even discuss such issues as a group with their own medical director and agency manager to see what resources and funding is available to do such jobs? Who pays you while you are giving the shots and where will your company get the reimbursement? A couple of FDs in FL have been giving flu shots but they are paid through the taxes of the people and will also get some extra funding later in a different budget. Now if you wanted to carry on a conversation about this, great. But, to just go on and on about issues you really have not investigated but just want to rant about how wronged you feel by everyone and how ENTITLED you believe you are to be given something you don't even know the process of how you should get it is just ridiculous.

And to bash me for trying to get some to see how much is involved in disaster/pandemic preparedness and management is just as ridiculous. Expand you knowledge and find out how EMS actually works within your state. Don't just do the superficial name calling of other professions and rant about things that really do not affect what your own leaders in EMS are doing. EMS is a lot more than your little protocol book.

 

[VentMedic]

Besides your own state's EMS and Public Health Department site, there are also many websites that can give you an idea about how various issues are being put in through the government pathways. Other professionals have some political offices on speed dial and the email addresses flag. Some state EMS offices do have a email alert or newsletter to inform their providers of impending actions. But, how many take time to read all which looking just like a "bunch of political stuff"?

http://www.nasemsd.org/

You can also watch the websites of the IAFF and state or local FF associations.

Many Bills get passed because there are too few EMS providers that are even aware of them. Then, this becomes a source for complaining but yet few do their homework on how this happened or where it originated. Some complain about the FDs but yet many probably do not know how they obtained and keep obtaining some of their strength or what bills got passed to quietly divert funding to special interest groups which can also include corporate run ambulances for huge contracts. I bet many here do not know their what stance their State Representatives, Senators and Governors have on EMS, Public Health and Safety issues.

It is like grumbling about the President if you did not even vote. If you at least sent your opinion out to some political offices or participated in some regional meetings to voice your concern, others would know there is a voice out there.

 

[VentMedic]

A couple more sites:

http://www.capwiz.com/naemt/home/

http://www.capwiz.com/naemt/issues/

http://www.advocatesforems.org/pageContent.aspx?id=2&titleID=9

 

[Level1pedstech]

This is true. I also never considered taking medics off the rigs, and in Ventura that would leave little in the way of available paramedics. Perhaps in the future, the FD station might be a place the public can get their BPs and lipids checked, and vaccines administered. Since we all face economic hardship and cannot pay to staff a paramedic engine on every corner anymore just to have them BBQ and watch movies, maybe when they are not on calls they could be doing public health duties.

BBQ and watch movies, is that what you really think?. I should probably stop now but what the hell, you need some educating. Do you have any idea what goes on at a firehouse in the course of a twenty four hour shift or do you and the others just tow the anti fire line. Maybe try a ride out and you will see that alot gets done before downtime activities like BBQ's and movie watching. Training,drilling,house duties and PT are just a few things that come before downtime activities. By the way during the day the public is always welcome to pop in for a BP check. It would be hard to have the fire department function as a walk in clinic and do more public health duties because they have to be able to do this little thing called responding to calls. I don't think leaving a house full of public health recipients while the crew responds to a call is going to go over real well with the white shirts.

I know you want more education and that's great,you can increase standards and education for prehospital providers all you want but who is going to do the job for 15,00 p/hr. Your never going to get the pay or respect out of the privates. Why do you think scab outfits like AMR manage to hold on, its because they are able to function mostly with medics that cant get on with fire. Why would you work for 25,000 p/yr with a private when you could work for 60,000 plus with fire. I'm sorry I just don't get it, maybe you could explain to us how your going to get the privates to step up and offer decent wages and benefits (like fire) to these folks after they get this great education you are proposing.

I understand not everyone wants to go fire but many would if they could do something as simple as passing the physical ability portion of the process. If chairman maobama and the rest of his party have their way and succeed in destroying our health care system, you after spending all those years in school might find yourself begging for a job as good as a firefighters. I will close by saying I think your a sharp kid and I know your going to go on and do great things but you and the other higher education folks really need to think things through and figure out how you are going to reward people for putting in years of education..

 

[daedalus]

Dude above me, you should quit while your ahead. I have spent a lot of time inside of Los Angeles County Fire stations. I have massive respect for firefighters, but I know what they do on their down time and I also know that it is not fair to the taxpayers.

Yes. BBQs and movies. That is what southern california firefighters (which is the geographic area this thread is about) really do. Just ask forum user "atropine" if you do not believe me.

PS, I have done rideouts. I have hung out at the FD station while on shift with the ambulance. I have stopped by. I know. You work in an ER.

 

[reaper]

BBQ and watch movies, is that what you really think?. I should probably stop now but what the hell, you need some educating. Do you have any idea what goes on at a firehouse in the course of a twenty four hour shift or do you and the others just tow the anti fire line. Maybe try a ride out and you will see that alot gets done before downtime activities like BBQ's and movie watching. Training,drilling,house duties and PT are just a few things that come before downtime activities. By the way during the day the public is always welcome to pop in for a BP check. It would be hard to have the fire department function as a walk in clinic and do more public health duties because they have to be able to do this little thing called responding to calls. I don't think leaving a house full of public health recipients while the crew responds to a call is going to go over real well with the white shirts.

I know you want more education and that's great,you can increase standards and education for prehospital providers all you want but who is going to do the job for 15,00 p/hr. Your never going to get the pay or respect out of the privates. Why do you think scab outfits like AMR manage to hold on, its because they are able to function mostly with medics that cant get on with fire. Why would you work for 25,000 p/yr with a private when you could work for 60,000 plus with fire. I'm sorry I just don't get it, maybe you could explain to us how your going to get the privates to step up and offer decent wages and benefits (like fire) to these folks after they get this great education you are proposing.

I understand not everyone wants to go fire but many would if they could do something as simple as passing the physical ability portion of the process. If chairman maobama and the rest of his party have their way and succeed in destroying our health care system, you after spending all those years in school might find yourself begging for a job as good as a firefighters. I will close by saying I think your a sharp kid and I know your going to go on and do great things but you and the other higher education folks really need to think things through and figure out how you are going to reward people for putting in years of education..

Why is it that FF's always look for the reward in advancing? Yes, over time the pay will increase, as more are pushed to higher education. Why can you not go out an increase your education, for the personal satisfaction of knowing that you are now a better provider?

Do you think teachers get advanced degrees for the awesome pay?

 

[VentMedic]

If chairman maobama and the rest of his party have their way and succeed in destroying our health care system, you after spending all those years in school might find yourself begging for a job as good as a firefighters. I will close by saying I think your a sharp kid and I know your going to go on and do great things but you and the other higher education folks really need to think things through and figure out how you are going to reward people for putting in years of education..

Those links I have posted from organizations that actually have advocates for EMS have considered the reimbursement status that is required to be at a professional level. Again, if you read the earlier article I posted it clearly states that a lot of legislators would love to help out EMS in these issues but unless we can define the providers there is not much hope of establishing a professional definition as other professions have done. When you present the nation's legislators with over 50 different titles and many of those using similar titles but totally different "hours of training", where is the standard.

Also for education, we are not talking about "years" of education to start. Even a mere two year degree is very little but it is a start. Other health care, business and education professsions would never consider hiring someone with so little education as that yet we trust people's lives to those with as little at 500 hours of training as a Paramedic.

If a FF/Paramedic had decided to be a health care professional in CA instead, he/she would be making that $100k, that atropine keeps bragging about, while working a 36 - 40 work week or about 2080 hours/year instead of well over 3000. If the Paramedic achieved similar professional recognition for professional services, the salaries would increase or at least the funding given to the FDs could be justified.

 

[Level1pedstech]

Dude above me, you should quit while your ahead. I have spent a lot of time inside of Los Angeles County Fire stations. I have massive respect for firefighters, but I know what they do on their down time and I also know that it is not fair to the taxpayers.

Yes. BBQs and movies. That is what southern california firefighters (which is the geographic area this thread is about) really do. Just ask forum user "atropine" if you do not believe me.

PS, I have done rideouts. I have hung out at the FD station while on shift with the ambulance. I have stopped by. I know. You work in an ER.

Yes I work in an ER where I have seen and helped to treat more critical patients than most EMTs with my amount of time in the field, nice shot but is that your best. I also have ten years of FF/EMT experience with two different departments one being a municipal combination paid/volunteer department. I only throw that in so that those who don't know me that might be following this thread will know I have my fire time in and know of what I speak when it comes to the fire side of things. Why am I not a paid full timer, simple I make 90,000 a year with an ultra nice benefit package as a teamster driving a truck. There was not much motivation to start back at square one and take a big cut in pay and benefits. You see I have a family and getting paid well for what I do is my goal in life. I see you passed right over the meat of my original post, how do you plan to get the privates to step up and offer pay to equal the increase in education you all seek. Do you really think these people are going to spend four years in school to come out making 15.00 p/hr, you my young friend have so much to learn.

 

[EMSLaw]

Yes I work in an ER where I have seen and helped to treat more critical patients than most EMTs with my amount of time in the field, nice shot but is that your best. I also have ten years of FF/EMT experience with two different departments one being a municipal combination paid/volunteer department. I only throw that in so that those who don't know me that might be following this thread will know I have my fire time in and know of what I speak when it comes to the fire side of things. Why am I not a paid full timer, simple I make 90,000 a year with an ultra nice benefit package as a teamster driving a truck. There was not much motivation to start back at square one and take a big cut in pay and benefits. You see I have a family and getting paid well for what I do is my goal in life. I see you passed right over the meat of my original post, how do you plan to get the privates to step up and offer pay to equal the increase in education you all seek. Do you really think these people are going to spend four years in school to come out making 15.00 p/hr, you my young friend have so much to learn.

Every increase in education necessarily creates a shortage of workers in the field, at least temporarily. Look at what happened when Pharmacists went to a Pharm.D. - there was a period when, as a result, NO new pharmacists graduated. The lack of a large, transient, and fungible pool of employees would force employers to pay better wages.

That being said, I think it's a false comparison to compare the wages of any given field to public safety. Police and firefighters, for a number of reasons - unions, the perceived danger of the work, etc. - are paid far more than other jobs with their same level of education.

 

[Level1pedstech]

Why is it that FF's always look for the reward in advancing? Yes, over time the pay will increase, as more are pushed to higher education. Why can you not go out an increase your education, for the personal satisfaction of knowing that you are now a better provider?

Do you think teachers get advanced degrees for the awesome pay?

Speaking for myself I have spent many hours in classes increasing my education a while I was working 60-70 hours a week. I increase my level of knowledge every time I shift in the ER. I am very satisfied with what I have been able to do in the last ten years. I also have plans for moving on with my education in the near future.

I don't think FF's are the only ones guilty of looking for a reward for time put into advancing their knowledge. Would you be happy working for garbage wages after putting in what some seem to think should be four years of school for paramedic? You could put in two and make twice the money working as an RN. The last RN student I know started as a brand new ER RN at 30.00 p/hr in a small level 3 hospital in rural Oregon.

 

[reaper]

I further my education for my Pt's sake. I did not get into this job to make high pay. I knew this before I started 20 years ago. I do this job, because I enjoy it!

As more people increase the educational standards. The pay will increase with it. The same way it did for Rn's.

 

[VentMedic]

Speaking for myself I have spent many hours in classes increasing my education a while I was working 60-70 hours a week. I increase my level of knowledge every time I shift in the ER. I am very satisfied with what I have been able to do in the last ten years. I also have plans for moving on with my education in the near future.

I don't think FF's are the only ones guilty of looking for a reward for time put into advancing their knowledge. Would you be happy working for garbage wages after putting in what some seem to think should be four years of school for paramedic? You could put in two and make twice the money working as an RN. The last RN student I know started as a brand new ER RN at 30.00 p/hr in a small level 3 hospital in rural Oregon.

The lowest denominator for an RN in the U.S. is the Associates degree (2 - 3 years with prerequisites).

The lowest denominator for EMS is either the 110 hours or 3 weeks worth of training for EMT-B or the Paramedic which can be as little as 500 hours in a couple of states or 3 months of training. While there are programs that offer two year degrees, few students finish them when given the option of a certificate at these colleges. Other professions got the word out that the requirements WOULD be increasing, not maybe, and that led the new students to get their degrees immediately. Those in the profession also already heard and started finishing their education. Thus when it was time to make the degree official, on a few people were without a degree.

Again, no one is asking the Paramedic at this time to get a 4 year degree. But, some act like a mere Associates is that big of a deal. Hell most of Associates degrees for the Paramedic are A.A.S. and require no major extra classes like the regular college A&P. Thus, some colleges have even dumbed down the Paramedic degrees and yet there are few that go for them.

An RN making only $30/hr? It is time to raise their education standard since the PTs, OTs and SLPs have passed up the RNs and RRTs, who only hold a mere Associates, in wages and bonuses. This is the reason why the RRTs have already petitioned for expansion of scope privileges, as it pertain to reimbursement, in other areas outside of the hospital such as clinics.

 

[daedalus]

Yes I work in an ER where I have seen and helped to treat more critical patients than most EMTs with my amount of time in the field, nice shot but is that your best. I also have ten years of FF/EMT experience with two different departments one being a municipal combination paid/volunteer department. I only throw that in so that those who don't know me that might be following this thread will know I have my fire time in and know of what I speak when it comes to the fire side of things. Why am I not a paid full timer, simple I make 90,000 a year with an ultra nice benefit package as a teamster driving a truck. There was not much motivation to start back at square one and take a big cut in pay and benefits. You see I have a family and getting paid well for what I do is my goal in life. I see you passed right over the meat of my original post, how do you plan to get the privates to step up and offer pay to equal the increase in education you all seek. Do you really think these people are going to spend four years in school to come out making 15.00 p/hr, you my young friend have so much to learn.

I skipped over the meat of your last post, as will I this one, because in my opinion it does not even deserve a response. I am a patient advocate first. I am currently a few months away from an A.S. in paramedic studies, and will probably be applying to Loma Linda's B.S. in Emergency Medical Care. I do this with the full knowledge that it by itself will not increase my salary.

After having a AS and BS in EMS, I will make just as much as the guy with the certificate paramedic school education, who started working when I did.

Also, what does any of this have to do with adding public health responsibilities to southern california fire paramedics who make over 100,000 a year to sit at a station?