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usalsfyre

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You can't always think that just because the monitor is showing arrows means it is the holy grail of pacemaker detection.
However, if your not willing to trust you equipment you'll end up hanging ami on a paced rhythm one day. I've seen it happen. For all of the "treat the patient" BS that exist out their, modern cardiac monitors are pretty dang good. The distrust that exist, and continues to be taught, is often misplaced blame from a bygone era. There are times you absolutely WILL NOT see a spike through the filtering software. As pacers get better, you'll see it less and less.


Furthermore if it is set to a specific R R interval; it is the same as pacing at a specific heart rate and the heart rate should be constant regardless of how often the pacer has to pace. This is further indication that these are PVC's.
What I gave was an incredibly oversimplified explanation. Someone once gave me a much more detailed rundown on the ins and outs of modern pacers....and I've forgotten most of it in the ensuing years.

I have seen the monitor show arrows in patients who had no pacemaker and it was simple artifact.
Me too, BUT...the times I've seen this have been randomly and oddly spaced, never correlating with "PVCs" (by your argument there's a bit of artifact at the same point before every PVC that the machine is sensing as a pacer spike? Unlikely). Furthermore the morphology of the ventricular beats appears similar to most of the paced beats I've seen lately. Deep S wave, slight elevation above the baseline of the ST segment, no it's not something I can say is an absolute, but pacer beats, at least in my very anecdotal experience all appear "similar".

Here are some pacemaker strips, yes not all will show pacemaker spikes on the monitor, but most do.

http://library.med.utah.edu/kw/ecg/image_index/index.html

Scroll down to (9) artificial pacemaker strips
All of these are 15 years old. Pacemaker technology and monitor technology has come a LONG, LONG way in 15 years. Back then you were looking at LP10s, very few prehospital 12 leads, non-sensing pacers being commonly, no atrial pacing, ect. It's like comparing a 1997 car to a 2011 car. Not really easy to do.

That said, I could be wrong, cardiology is not a particular area of special interest to me.
 

medicsb

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This...

Those are PVC's not a pacer, although the patient has a pacer it is a demand pacer and should not be firing. Even the new pacers should show very small spikes when they are active and these do not. I couldn't most other strips but there were some multifocal PVC's as well. That and the rate of the rhythm led me to choose PVC's. He had long runs of afib in between these long runs of PVC's

Did you do a 12 lead?

Many pacemakers now barely show pacer spikes in limb leads, sometimes not at all.

I'm very very confident in saying that what you posted showed paced beats and not PVCs. Though, it did look like the 10th beat may have been a PVC.

Even if they were "PVCs", they are no longer PVCs when there are 3 or more in a row. At that point it becomes a ventricular rhythm of some sorts (IVR, VT, etc.).

Anyhow, I think another poster has said anything else I might have had to say.
 
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rhan101277

rhan101277

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Has anyone ever seen someone who had a pacemaker but the pacing action was not causing any mechanical action?

That is what this patient was having if they are indeed pacemaker.
 

firetender

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Has anyone ever seen someone who had a pacemaker but the pacing action was not causing any mechanical action?

Sure, but they were all dead. When heart cells are dead, there is no mechanical response. On the monitor you'll see a pacer spike, but no more. If you stick a pacer into a cow's heart from the grocery store (they sell them in your neighborhood, don't they?), it won't beat.

But maybe I'm misreading your question. A pacer can malfunction by continuing to discharge steady beats while the heart is beating on its own. In other words, the pacer ignores the activity of the heart which is ignoring the activity of the pacer. In that case, you get the heart's rhythm on the monitor as well as the pacer spikes.
 

usalsfyre

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Has anyone ever seen someone who had a pacemaker but the pacing action was not causing any mechanical action?

That is what this patient was having if they are indeed pacemaker.

I've seen failure to capture in external pacing.

I've also seen providers who failed to pick up on a change in the nature of a beat when palpating a pulse.
 

usalsfyre

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Just so we're clear, I wasn't there, and am simply armchair quarterbacking this thing from hundreds (a thousand?) miles away. I'm simply telling you what I see based off a kinda rough picture of a monitoring strip and common mistakes I've made/seen others make.

A 12 lead would really help this process.
 
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rhan101277

rhan101277

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I have the 12 lead, I will post momentarily. Also I have only been doing this for 7 months so I am still learning as well.
 
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rhan101277

rhan101277

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12 lead tracing
 

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