40 students in a class?

[hogwiley]

Why?

Programs with really high drop out rates tend to produce crappy EMTs from what Ive seen.

There seems to be a misconception among some people that a high drop out rate equals a program with high standards, but it usually just means poor instruction and an unhealthy culture.

Yeah its normal for some people to drop out early because its not what they expected, but if you continually lose people after that, theres something wrong.

 

[Veneficus]

Aren't there schools in the Caribbean that do this?

All over the world.

 

[WTEngel]

Fair enough.

Your main point is pretty much the crux of the matter, with which I completely agree.

Any school can tell you they have a 90% or greater pass rate for students who graduate their program. This means nothing if they fail everyone except for the most likely to succeed, and this is what the OP should pay attention to.

Start with 100, end with 10, 9 out of 10 pass, 90% pass rate achieved. Do you really want to go to a school with a 90% pass rate if upon closer inspection, you have a 91% chance of flunking the program of failing after graduation?

 

[DesertMedic66]

Any program with that much attrition has problems with their exam content, curriculum, or both. There is an expectation that some attrition will be present, but when you have less than 25% of the students remaining at the end of a fairly cut and dry vocational education course, outside of some extenuating circumstance (half the class dies int he same bus accident or something similar) then there is a problem with the program.

Not 100% true. We are known as one of the better EMT programs in SoCal and our class sizes get down to that.

We so far this semester we have lost 10 students and the first day of EMT class hasn't even started.

We normally lose 5-10 students for not coming to a mandatory meeting before class starts. We normally lose 2-10 students for not having their shots and TB test up to date (they are told from day 1 to get it done and have ~8 weeks to get it done). Normally 1-2 are lost from not wanting to follow the uniform policy. That right there brings the class size from 45 down to 25 (give or take).

Now the testing is where it gets more people. 80% or higher in combined overall class grade with at least a 75% on the Mid-term (100 questions) and final (200 questions). Plus a 100% on final skills testing. Can lose 0-10 more students.

Plus during ride outs some of the students realize they don't want to go thru with the class anymore.

A lot of it depends on the students who come into the program. Some semesters we will get an amazing group of students where we will graduate 30-45 students other semesters we will graduate ~10.

 

[johnboy8281]

What are you basing this off of?

How many instructors or programs have you seen?

I'm just basing this off of my own observations. Of the 12 or so that dropped out in advanced, 6 or 7 of those didn't fail out. They either quit coming to class or had some other kind of excuse (work, family etc.). And the others that actually failed out, the instructors were more than fair with them and offered them the class next go-around at no additional charge (i'm not sure how many actually took them up on this).

They weren't the best instructors at times but looking back I honestly think they did a great job preparing me for National Registry and the field.

P.S. I read all of your posts in a Morgan Freeman voice

 

[littlepigowl]

When I did school if you got under a 80 on any test you were automatically dropped. We started with 38 and had 12 by the second test. Seemed like a huge number to begin with but the course weeded out the weak very fast

 

[WTEngel]

Well if you are including students who drop prior to the actual instruction of the material, then I don't think it is an apple to apple comparison.

At our program we tend to lose about 20%, once the actual delivery of material has started and evaluations commence. Any attrition prior to that is not really applicable in my opinion as it has nothing to do with the quality of the instructors.

When evaluating your testing methods, most places that REALLY validate their exams will not only locate questions where 60% or more of the students missed the exam item, but they also compare that performance to the top 10% of the class, to evaluate whether it was just an extremely high order test item, or if the item was truly not valid, or if it was a valid item that was instructed poorly.

Statistical analysis aside, a program that loses high numbers once the delivery of course material has started has problems...IMHO

 

[Veneficus]

Not 100% true. We are known as one of the better EMT programs in SoCal and our class sizes get down to that.

We so far this semester we have lost 10 students and the first day of EMT class hasn't even started.

We normally lose 5-10 students for not coming to a mandatory meeting before class starts. We normally lose 2-10 students for not having their shots and TB test up to date (they are told from day 1 to get it done and have ~8 weeks to get it done). Normally 1-2 are lost from not wanting to follow the uniform policy. That right there brings the class size from 45 down to 25 (give or take).

Those that withdraw without financial loss are not counted in attrition rates for academic performance.

Now the testing is where it gets more people. 80% or higher in combined overall class grade with at least a 75% on the Mid-term (100 questions) and final (200 questions). Plus a 100% on final skills testing. Can lose 0-10 more students.

Plus during ride outs some of the students realize they don't want to go thru with the class anymore.

A lot of it depends on the students who come into the program. Some semesters we will get an amazing group of students where we will graduate 30-45 students other semesters we will graduate ~10.

It doesn't matter.

If you lose 50% of your enrolled past withdrawel dates, your program sucks.

Just because you suck less than others in the area doesn't make you quality.

 

[WTEngel]

When I did school if you got under a 80 on any test you were automatically dropped. We started with 38 and had 12 by the second test. Seemed like a huge number to begin with but the course weeded out the weak very fast

Arbitrarily setting the bar at 80% is ridiculous, especially if you don't scrutinize the test items and normalize for performance of the individual class.

We have an 80% threshold for our course also, but there is so much more to it than simply telling students they must score 80 or higher. There has to be work on the back end evaluating test material and test items.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Those that withdraw without financial loss are not counted in attrition rates for academic performance.



It doesn't matter.

If you lose 50% of your enrolled past withdrawel dates, your program sucks.

Just because you suck less than others in the area doesn't make you quality.

So our program sucks because students can't follow simple directions such as to get their TB test? Even tho they are given 8 weeks to get it done and we give them the number to the health and wellness center on campus.

 

[Veneficus]

I'm just basing this off of my own observations. Of the 12 or so that dropped out in advanced, 6 or 7 of those didn't fail out. They either quit coming to class or had some other kind of excuse (work, family etc.). And the others that actually failed out, the instructors were more than fair with them and offered them the class next go-around at no additional charge (i'm not sure how many actually took them up on this).

They weren't the best instructors at times but looking back I honestly think they did a great job preparing me for National Registry and the field.

So your experience is N=1?

In my experience as an instructor for more than 10 years, in multiple institutions, and test proctor, I can say I have met at least a hundred instructors, and observed and discussed multiple programs with their participants and staff. Including online programs.

I can spot a hack in about 5 sentences.

P.S. I read all of your posts in a Morgan Freeman voice

That avatar was chosen for me in the directionless thread, I did not pick it.

When I did school if you got under a 80 on any test you were automatically dropped. We started with 38 and had 12 by the second test. Seemed like a huge number to begin with but the course weeded out the weak very fast

The purpose of education is not to weed out those who are not good at self study.

The purpose of education is to teach people who do not know something.

The 80% is rather standard in most programs. The EMT curriculum is based on an 8th grade level. The paramedic program on 10th. To say there are people so stupid they cannot acceptably pass that material is just ignorance.

In one EMT class at the last program I taught medic for, they had a documented mentally retarded man on partial disability from it take the class. He got the same 80% that everyone else needed. He had no more opportunity or accomodation than anyone else.

He passed his national registry on the first try.

I absolutely cannot imagine what kind of people you must think show up for EMT class that you are "weeding out" the academically unfit.

But to illustrate WTs point, I bet I could make up a test right now that most doctors would struggle to get 80% on. It doesn't mean they are unfit, it means my test is unfair.

 

[Veneficus]

So our program sucks because students can't follow simple directions such as to get their TB test? Even tho they are given 8 weeks to get it done and we give them the number to the health and wellness center on campus.

You charge people tuition without refund who never start the class?

That is a scam.

 

[DesertMedic66]

You charge people tuition without refund who never start the class?

That is a scam.

If the students haven't gotten their TB test by the 8th week of class (mid-term and when they start ride outs) then they are dropped from the class without refund.

The students who don't show up for the mandatory meeting are dropped from the class and are given a refund.

I believe for the college they can drop any class in the first 2 weeks and get a refund but after that there is no refund (not 100% sure).

 

[Veneficus]

If the students haven't gotten their TB test by the 8th week of class (mid-term and when they start ride outs) then they are dropped from the class without refund.

Just out of curosity, wouldn't it be better for both the students and the program to require the TB test prior to the college's drop with refund date and not setting one 6 weeks after? Especially if this is a mass and common occurance?

Regretfully, that sounds like a scam to me.

Who pays for this TB test?

In the event it comes back positive or in the case of people immunized to TB, who pays the cost for the xray?

The students who don't show up for the mandatory meeting are dropped from the class and are given a refund.

In all of my education, I have never once seen a mandatory meeting that resulted in an automatic drop if it wasn't attended.

I have even stated directly to the Vice Dean of my former med school I was not showing up for multiple mandatory meetings because what was being discussed either didn't apply to me or was a total waste of my time.

Never once was anything ever made of it.

What could possibly be so important in your EMT program?

 

[DesertMedic66]

Just out of curosity, wouldn't it be better for both the students and the program to require the TB test prior to the college's drop with refund date and not setting one 6 weeks after? Especially if this is a mass and common occurance?

Regretfully, that sounds like a scam to me.

Who pays for this TB test?

In the event it comes back positive or in the case of people immunized to TB, who pays the cost for the xray?



In all of my education, I have never once seen a mandatory meeting that resulted in an automatic drop if it wasn't attended.

I have even stated directly to the Vice Dean of my former med scool I was not showing up for multiple mandatory meetings because what was being discussed either didn't apply to me or was a total waste of my time.

Never once was anything ever made of it.

What could possibly be so important in your EMT program?

The TB test is a requirement by the ambulance agencies, fire departments, and hospital that we have contracts with. We give the students extra time in case they want to schedule an appointment with their own doctors to get the test (it's a 2 step TB test so it takes a couple of days to complete).

The students are told about the cost of the TB test at the mandatory meeting. If students don't have the money we have an account set up for them where the EMS department pays for it (also have a supply of boots for students to wear on ride outs if they can't afford it). Same deal for the X-ray.

The mandatory meeting is a 2-3 hour meeting that goes over everything about the class. Everything from costs of the program and the NREMT to students who have felonies (what they may need to do) to the chain if command and who the students need to talk to if they have an issue to the syllabus for the class. Day one of class is all teaching.

 

[SSwain]

Our class started with 27...12 finished
10 took the NREMT practical exam (all passed)
7 passed the written portion

About 25% final finish rate. :huh:

 

[AtlasFlyer]

Not that it really matters, but my EMT class that started yesterday, there were 12 students. 4 women, 8 men. Max capacity for the class is 15. The classroom is in a community college public safety building, and looking around there's no way more than 15 people should be in a hands-on type class in that particular room/building as there wouldn't be enough room. This is not an observation based on not wanting a lot of people in a class, rather a physical limitation of the size of the available space.

 

[some1ne]

Do they all require TB tests? I read nothing about that at my area program or on the application

 

[some1ne]

The mandatory meeting is a 2-3 hour meeting that goes over everything about the class. Everything from costs of the program and the NREMT to students who have felonies (what they may need to do)

They actually hire EMT's with Felonies?

 

[Veneficus]

They actually hire EMT's with Felonies?

Yes, but it is not as simple as applying. There is a whole process, like when it happened, how long it has been, etc. etc.

In most places it is a case by case basis.