How much anatomy do you need on the job?

Dearing Baymiller

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hey guys,
i'm heading into EMT-B this fall, and i'm already taking A&P, and doing pretty good so far. how much of the Anatomy classes do you actually use on the job? obviously the A&P directional terms and etc. , but do you really retain all of the carpal and tarsal bone names? do you tend to forget them over the years, or do you keep independently studying to the point you can name them in your sleep? ;) just curious to see what to expect in the future.

thanks!

dave

edit: i'm heading into the Medical Terminology class in the fall as well, looking forward to that.
i pulled out of it to take in the fall, to make sure not to take a compressed summer class for that. i wanted the full semester to take my time and really absorb the material in my mind.
 
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Shishkabob

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You don't NEED any of it.


But here's a caveat;

Just because you take it doesn't mean you'll do better in class.


I never took it and am doing just fine (knock on wood). But I also read a couple A&P books and am a quick, vocal listener.

You can generally tell who has, and has not, taken it, but not always.
 

Ridryder911

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You will use it far more than all lot of the stuff that seemed important or exciting. Anatomy & physiology is used (or should be) on each and every patient. Medical terminology is used on every chart and discussion of patient care.

If you really learn them & not just memorize things, you will tend to retain them. Yes, review things periodically and study more in-depth to be able to increase your knowledge.

R/r 911
 
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Dearing Baymiller

Dearing Baymiller

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You don't NEED any of it.


But here's a caveat;

Just because you take it doesn't mean you'll do better in class.


I never took it and am doing just fine (knock on wood). But I also read a couple A&P books and am a quick, vocal listener.

You can generally tell who has, and has not, taken it, but not always.

thanks linuss, i had figured this was the case from ride alongs i had a long time ago, but i wasn't sure if anything had changed.
 

Ridryder911

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You don't NEED any of it.


But here's a caveat;

Just because you take it doesn't mean you'll do better in class.


I never took it and am doing just fine (knock on wood). But I also read a couple A&P books and am a quick, vocal listener.

You can generally tell who has, and has not, taken it, but not always.

How can you honestly make such a remark? In what expertise do you offer as a student; yourself? If you have never taken either what type of program are you taking and what type of medic will be presented in the end that does not know what they are working upon? So you know the Kreb's cycle and potassium pump... & please then tell me how one should not know such.

Can one imagine any health care professional in any health care profession making such a remark... better yet, a mechanic remarking you don't have know the parts of a car or how they function, to repair a car?

R/r911
 
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Shishkabob

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But let me make this clear--- While A&P class is not needed, a clear understanding OF A&P is needed. It lends itself to critical thinking. If you know how the body works, it will help you figure things out a lot more, such as why "peping" is used for pulmonary edema's.


As my instructor says, it makes the difference between a medic, and a good medic.
 

Ridryder911

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thanks linuss, i had figured this was the case from ride alongs i had a long time ago, but i wasn't sure if anything had changed.

If your ride along represented such, then this is just one of the many PROBLEMS of those in EMS. LAZY & a poor representation of health care providers or as I say pseudo providers. Then we wonder why they still call them ambulance drivers.

R/r 911
 

Shishkabob

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How can you honestly make such a remark? In what expertise do you offer as a student; yourself? If you have never taken either what type of program are you taking and what type of medic will be presented in the end that does not know what they are working upon? So you know the Kreb's cycle and potassium pump... & please then tell me how one should not know such.

Can one imagine any health care professional in any health care profession making such a remark... better yet, a mechanic remarking you don't have know the parts of a car or how they function, to repair a car?

R/r911

You misread what I said.





You don't "need" A&P class to do well in medic school.

A&P is a good idea.

You can do ok in class without A&P.

You can sometimes tell who has and has not taken A&P.





Now, as to your question on how I can comment on such? I never took A&P and have the highest grade in class on the A&P sections. THAT'S how, good sir.
 
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Ridryder911

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As my instructor says, it makes the difference between a medic, and a good medic.

He should say; it makes the difference between and idiot and a medic.

R/r 911
 
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Dearing Baymiller

Dearing Baymiller

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You will use it far more than all lot of the stuff that seemed important or exciting. Anatomy & physiology is used (or should be) on each and every patient. Medical terminology is used on every chart and discussion of patient care.

If you really learn them & not just memorize things, you will tend to retain them. Yes, review things periodically and study more in-depth to be able to increase your knowledge.

R/r 911

i'm in a compressed class. skeletal, muscle, and nervous systems over four days and taking a very basic test.
i am only taking a Comp II class the second half of summer, so i figured i would go back and take my time to learn them, instead of just the cramming we're getting.
between studying on my own idle time, and the full Medical Term. class ( i have the book and a number of the guys who are taking it say it's going to be a rehash of A&P) i think i'll absorb and retain the material much better.

thanks guys! i'm going to suck info from as many experienced brains here as i can. hopefully i won't ask too many stupid new guy questions!


dave
 

VentMedic

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hey guys,
i'm heading into EMT-B this fall, and i'm already taking A&P, and doing pretty good so far. how much of the Anatomy classes do you actually use on the job?

You need as much as you can get into your head by learning, not memorizing, and then some. I've had 6 years of formal education involving the sciences, including A&P, and still learn something new almost everyday. If you talk to medical doctors they will tell you the same thing which is why they also must train and acquire more education almost constantly. If you do not have a solid foundation in the sciences, medicine will leave you in the dust to where you will have to rely purely on memorization and a recipe.
 

Ridryder911

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Now, as to your question on how I can comment on such? I never took A&P and have the highest grade in class on the A&P sections. THAT'S how, good sir.

So? What does that represent in a program that does not require basic science. I am supposed to be impressed? A program that uses a 10'th grade reading level book and one makes an A? Again... please.

As an educator, I make tests that one cane make an A or F. It all depends on the level and criteria the instution places upon the education. Sorry, if one does not even require formal basic science class for a health care profession, what accountablility does the grade represent?

R/r 911
 

VentMedic

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i'm in a compressed class. skeletal, muscle, and nervous systems over four days and taking a very basic test.

Are you taking a standard college Anatomy and Physiology class with a lab? Is it transferable to all health care programs or is it an overview class for EMS?
 

Shishkabob

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Rid.................

I was commenting for school, not on the job. That's where your and my miscommunication happens.


Did I say it was a good idea to go without it? Nope. Did I say I recommend skipping it? Nope. Did I say there's a difference between those who did and did not take it? Yup.
 
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Ridryder911

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i'm in a compressed class. skeletal, muscle, and nervous systems over four days and taking a very basic test.
i am only taking a Comp II class the second half of summer, so i figured i would go back and take my time to learn them, instead of just the cramming we're getting.
between studying on my own idle time, and the full Medical Term. class ( i have the book and a number of the guys who are taking it say it's going to be a rehash of A&P) i think i'll absorb and retain the material much better.

thanks guys! i'm going to suck info from as many experienced brains here as i can. hopefully i won't ask too many stupid new guy questions!


dave

It's not a stupid question. Part of the problem many students do not and cannot see as they are within the program. One cannot really answer truthfully, until they have practiced for a while.

Your brain feels overloaded? Good. That means you are doing it right. As Vent describes, you will continue to build upon the foundation. You will continue to review as you learn. This is why a quick review is usually in the intro of each chapter in medical books, but one already has to have the basic understanding before attempting to go forward.

Good luck!

R/r 911
 
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Dearing Baymiller

Dearing Baymiller

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Are you taking a standard college Anatomy and Physiology class with a lab? Is it transferable to all health care programs or is it an overview class for EMS?[/QUOTE}

it's an Essentials A&P class, sorry i didn't tack that one on. it's a beginning class. after that there is offered Anatomy and Physiology I.
EA&P is part of the six month EMT-B certificate program here at iowa lakes.
after EMT certificate, you have the option of going further to Paramedic Specialist.
here's the program.
http://www.iowalakes.edu/programs_study/health/paramedic.htm

i'm lucky, i have no kids, no family, no job, so nothing in the way of devoting all of my time and energy to these classes.

edit: the A&P I class has a lab. i talked to Mr. Dobbins, the teacher for Paramed Sci, and he is redoing the curriculum this fall to add in more A&P, i assume the A&PI, for the program. sounds good to me!
 
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daedalus

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You misread what I said.





You don't "need" A&P class to do well in medic school.

A&P is a good idea.

You can do ok in class without A&P.

You can sometimes tell who has and has not taken A&P.





Now, as to your question on how I can comment on such? I never took A&P and have the highest grade in class on the A&P sections. THAT'S how, good sir.
A and P is written into the National Standard Curriculum as a pre requisite. Without it, understanding pathophysiology and pharmacology is difficult at best and impossible at worst. Without knowing pathophys, a and p, and pharm, forming a differential diagnosis and using drug therapy to treat a patient is dangerous at best.

Most teachers will lecture in manner that expects a student to have a intermediate level command of A&P. The girl next to me took an online A&P and I hear her go "Huh??!!" every day when ADH, first pass metabolism, neuroendocrine relationships, the nervous system, epithelial tissues and membranes, serous fluid, fluid compartments, etc etc etc are discussed.

If and when I become a medical director, I will not accredit paramedics to practice with out a formal anatomy class under their belts.
 
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Dearing Baymiller

Dearing Baymiller

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It's not a stupid question. Part of the problem many students do not and cannot see as they are within the program. One cannot really answer truthfully, until they have practiced for a while.

Your brain feels overloaded? Good. That means you are doing it right. As Vent describes, you will continue to build upon the foundation. You will continue to review as you learn. This is why a quick review is usually in the intro of each chapter in medical books, but one already has to have the basic understanding before attempting to go forward.

Good luck!

R/r 911

thanks, i think i'm going to do really well. i'm confident and motivated and i absorb info like a sponge. hopefully i can put it into practice as well!

my basis for the original question was my first responder classes almost fifteen years ago. our teachers were all locals back home in my small town in Missouri, people i had known all of my life. the county got a boost in funds for our local ambulance so they hired and trained several of our local moms and summer workers, mostly guys and gals who had nothing to do but go to the quick EMT class and drive. i believe they were not trained much past the basics, just enough to get someone to a hospital alive. and the nearest hospital back home was, and still is about 30 miles away.

i honestly want to do better than that. i will be studying all i can and as hard as i can.

thanks for the insight guys. i'll be thinking hard on this this weekend while i get ready for those tests, and when i go back later this summer to work on it again on my own.


dave
 

vquintessence

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Yes, knowing the systems and at least their basic functions will be paramount for your patient as well as your success in the field. Sure, you may not need it every transport if you're running IFT as a Basic... but it will still be essential. Wait until you become a medic (which you will... you'll see).

Case: You are sent to the common EMS call of "altered mental status". Pt is profoundly lethargic and not anywhere near baseline according to family. Along with CHF, the pt has a history of CRF (chronic renal failure) and is dialyized 3 times a week.

So, here is where the cut in quality EMS providers is:

Will you treat this "old lady" as "every other old person" and just check their BGL and 12 lead and put them on a nasal cannula... or will you use critical thinking and knowledge of human physiology to further assess the pt?

Clue: Use a focused assessment and knowledge of the renal system to prompt further questions of the pt!

Focused assessment (thanks to your knowledge of physiology): Pt was supposed to get dialysis on Friday, but missed appointment because family is visiting... well it's now Monday evening and the pt AGAIN missed another appointment to see their beloved family off at the airport. Pt also consumes 3 bananas a day with breakfast and lunch. Oh, and you notice that pt is prescribed Spiralactone.

Working diagnosis: Due to missing dialysis for days, eating food high in potassium, pt is on a potassium sparing diuretic, and having an ECG tracing showing "peaked t-waves"... would it be reasonable to have a working diagnosis of a hyperkalemic pt?
(Sorry for being dramatic and providing the silver bullet scenario... need sleep)
 
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Shishkabob

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A and P is written into the National Standard Curriculum as a pre requisite. Without it, understanding pathophysiology and pharmacology is difficult at best and impossible at worst. Without knowing pathophys, a and p, and pharm, forming a differential diagnosis and using drug therapy to treat a patient is dangerous at best.

Most teachers will lecture in manner that expects a student to have a intermediate level command of A&P. The girl next to me took an online A&P and I hear her go "Huh??!!" every day when ADH, first pass metabolism, neuroendocrine relationships, the nervous system, epithelial tissues and membranes, serous fluid, fluid compartments, etc etc etc are discussed.

If and when I become a medical director, I will not accredit paramedics to practice with out a formal anatomy class under their belts.


I'm not debating the necessity of A&P knowledge or understanding in the slightest, I simply misread his question and answered it with my view--- you don't need A&P class to do well in paramedic school.


Do you need an A&P understanding? Heck yea, as drugs effect physiology. Without understanding basics like interstitial fluid, albumin interaction, and stuff like that, you won't know whats going on.
 
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