Oh man

[KempoEMT]

Had a friend OD while she was with me. went full unresponsive, no response to two trap squeezes and 1 sternum rub, on second she went to painful, and then verbal. and then A&O2 then 4. was some scary stuff. Im glad i've learned the skills I have, and am continuing to learn. it showed me what can happen, and I definately will learn from this experience.

 

[AJ Hidell]

Dude, why you wanna go kill her buzz like that? She ODd because she wanted LESS stimulation, not more. Some friend you are.

I certainly wouldn't get in the habit of making that move. It won't take long before you find someone who deeply resents it and dots your eye.

 

[KempoEMT]

Dude, why you wanna go kill her buzz like that? She ODd because she wanted LESS stimulation, not more. Some friend you are.

I certainly wouldn't get in the habit of making that move. It won't take long before you find someone who deeply resents it and dots your eye.

there are extenuating circumstances that i am not allowed to discuss, but she was not having a recreational trip

 

[AJ Hidell]

Ah, understood. I just don't see a lot of medical or legal justification for physically assaulting someone simply because you don't want them to be unconscious, regardless of why they ODd. If she was breathing, that's good enough.

 

[fortsmithman]

Ah, understood. I just don't see a lot of medical or legal justification for physically assaulting someone simply because you don't want them to be unconscious, regardless of why they ODd. If she was breathing, that's good enough.

The OP did the right thing following your advice he would be the defendant in a civil proceeding brought on by his friends family. The basis would be if the friend had died that a trained person did nothing while the person went unconscious and died. As well as possible criinal prceedings. AJ you as a former LEO should know that.

 

[AJ Hidell]

What exactly did he do that made any demonstrable difference in her outcome? Wake her up? Unconsciousness isn't a fatal condition. It is only a symptom. So long as she has intact ABCs, she is not going to die, unconscious or not. Did he do anything for her ABCs? No. Did he need to do anything for her ABCs? No. Did he need to do anything about her unconsciousness? No. Did he accomplish anything of medical value by doing so? No.

The first requirement for civil proceedings is a proof of damages. Unless he forced her to OD, there is no liability. And as a lay bystander, he has no duty to act.

 

[daedalus]

AJ, are you saying that attempting to determine an AVPU value on a friend is assault? I am just asking, because I am betting I am just missing a very valid point you are making (no sarcasm intended).

Original poster, I am not understanding your point in posting this thread. Especially due to the fact you claim you cannot discuss it.

 

[Ms.Medic]

Why were you even with a person who was "ODing" in the first place ? And what skills did you use that helped her that your so glad you had, just curious ?

Someone going through a course like these should not be around someone who is using.....period. Oh, but of course, theres always a possibility it was "accidental".

 

[AJ Hidell]

AJ, are you saying that attempting to determine an AVPU value on a friend is assault? I am just asking, because I am betting I am just missing a very valid point you are making (no sarcasm intended).

Think about what you were taught (if anything, as most truly professional educators who stay current in their field stopped this technique years ago) about the sternal rub in school? What is the purpose of it? Now, with that purpose in mind, is there any medical indication for a good Samaritan to perform it? And if not, can it be legally justified? And if not, is that not assault (or whatever term your jurisdiction assigns to non-consensual bodily contact)?

Noxious stimulus is not a therapeutic modality. It is a diagnostic assessment tool. And anyone who doesn't clearly understand that shouldn't be performing it in the first place.

Did he call 911? If not, then is that because he felt she didn't need medical attention? And if he felt she didn't need medical attention, why was he attempting to render it? Sorry, but this whole scenario just comes across as completely inappropriate on multiple levels.

 

[Ms.Medic]

Sorry, but this whole scenario just comes across as completely inappropriate on multiple levels.

Yeah, ummm, what he said.


I have to agree, saying he cant talk about it and then posting it on a website for the world to see ???

IMO, if he thought it was bad enough, shoulda called 911.

 

[Airwaygoddess]

I do believe the point here is that he was at the right place at the right time, and helping someone who was in need.......... respectfully submitted. -_-

 

[KempoEMT]

I do believe the point here is that he was at the right place at the right time, and helping someone who was in need.......... respectfully submitted. -_-

thank you airway. All I meant was right place right time. I did not intend to start the firestorm that has occurred from my origional post. I'm new to this field. I can't discuss it because my pt/friend asked me not to discuss all that lead to the event. If I have upset someone I apologize. I'm glad my friend is ok, that's what I was trying to convey; I obviously didn't portray that as well as I should.

 

[amberdt03]

thank you airway. All I meant was right place right time. I did not intend to start the firestorm that has occurred from my origional post. I'm new to this field. I can't discuss it because my pt/friend asked me not to discuss all that lead to the event. If I have upset someone I apologize. I'm glad my friend is ok, that's what I was trying to convey; I obviously didn't portray that as well as I should.

the bottom line is your friend is ok. i don't think that you upset anyone on this forum. they were just trying to help, although sometimes it might not seem like they are. what aj was saying was, if your friends abc's were still intact, there was no reason to due anything else other than monitor her.

i'm sure everyone here is grateful that your friend is doing ok.

 

[daedalus]

Think about what you were taught (if anything, as most truly professional educators who stay current in their field stopped this technique years ago) about the sternal rub in school? What is the purpose of it? Now, with that purpose in mind, is there any medical indication for a good Samaritan to perform it? And if not, can it be legally justified? And if not, is that not assault (or whatever term your jurisdiction assigns to non-consensual bodily contact)?

Noxious stimulus is not a therapeutic modality. It is a diagnostic assessment tool. And anyone who doesn't clearly understand that shouldn't be performing it in the first place.

Did he call 911? If not, then is that because he felt she didn't need medical attention? And if he felt she didn't need medical attention, why was he attempting to render it? Sorry, but this whole scenario just comes across as completely inappropriate on multiple levels.

Clarified. I 100 % agree.

 

[daedalus]

thank you airway. All I meant was right place right time. I did not intend to start the firestorm that has occurred from my origional post. I'm new to this field. I can't discuss it because my pt/friend asked me not to discuss all that lead to the event. If I have upset someone I apologize. I'm glad my friend is ok, that's what I was trying to convey; I obviously didn't portray that as well as I should.

You do not get it, do you? You did nothing to help. You did not change the outcome for your friend or apply any therapeutic technique that could have changed her outcome. You rubbed her chest and are calling it a rescue, when in fact, if you felt the need to assess her mental status, you should have been seeking real medical attention for her.

 

[curt]

Isn't there a slightly less awkward way to test responsiveness to a painful level, such as squeezing someone's fingertip superiorly and inferiorly between your thumb and index finger?

 

[KempoEMT]

You do not get it, do you? You did nothing to help. You did not change the outcome for your friend or apply any therapeutic technique that could have changed her outcome. You rubbed her chest and are calling it a rescue, when in fact, if you felt the need to assess her mental status, you should have been seeking real medical attention for her.

A. I never said I rescued.
B. I was about to seek medical attention when she came around
C. She had a dr. Appointment I was taking her to anyway

 

[amberdt03]

A. I never said I rescued.
B. I was about to seek medical attention when she came around
C. She had a dr. Appointment I was taking her to anyway

just let it go. its not worth arguing about. some people tend to over react

 

[Ms.Medic]

A. I never said I rescued.
B. I was about to seek medical attention when she came around
C. She had a dr. Appointment I was taking her to anyway

Then what exactly is your post "OH MAN" about, just the fact that you had a friend get sick but now she's okay ??? Cause I remember you stating that you were glad you knew how to do the skills you learned,,,what skills exactly, were you talking about ? I was under the impression that you did something that you learned that helped her, isnt that what you posted ? Thats what we were talking about. (well some)

 

[AJ Hidell]

I did not intend to start the firestorm that has occurred from my origional post. I'm new to this field. I can't discuss it because my pt/friend asked me not to discuss all that lead to the event. If I have upset someone I apologize. I'm glad my friend is ok, that's what I was trying to convey; I obviously didn't portray that as well as I should.

No worries, Bro. I'm certainly not upset. I respect the confidentiality that you need to maintain in this situation. And I'm glad that she's going to be fine. I just didn't want you walking away from the scenario believing that you had done something of benefit for your friend by rousing her from her unconsciousness. One of the hardest concepts for EMS n00bs to understand is that you don't always have to "do something". One of the weaknesses of EMT education is that it is so skills-based that the EMT is left with the impression that there is always some "skill" s/he must be performing on every patient. What results is what we see here, which is people doing things just to be doing things, without really understanding what they are doing or why.

I understand that you are still learning. As Amber indicated, I'm just trying to contribute to that process. No harm done. Just think it through and take the lesson from it for the future.