when to go to als school

jpgranlund

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hey guys, just wondering when you guys would consider going on to emt enhanced (or the next step into als depending on what state your from ) from basic? i am just not sure at what point itd be a good move. i am trying to become a paramedic so i dont plan on staying a basic forever. thanks for the help guys
 
Go straight to paramedic school now, waiting and the stepwise progression is BS.
 
There's like over 9000 threads on this question. Everyone has a different opinion do it whenever you want.
 
Go when you are ready.
I'm a fan of getting Pre-Reqs like A&P, Micro, Chem wether they are required or not. While taking those classes you can always work part time.
 
Firstly, take everything you read here and on this forum with a large grain of salt.

Secondly, that's a question that doesn't really have a right or wrong answer, and will vary with every person who ask's it.

You need to take an accurate look at 1)how the paramedic class you are going into is set up, 2)what type of experience you would actually gain if you waited, 3)what type of person are you.

1) How long is the paramedic class? Is it a quick, down and dirty course where you spend little time in the classroom, less in a hospital, and only the minimum (200 hours is all that's required, though that might have changed with the new curriculum; not positive), or does it go well beyond the minimum standards? When you are doing your clinicals in hospital, do you actually have to DO anything, or just hang out and get a signature from a nurse? Same for the field internship. What are the expectations that are laid on you? What really will happen if you don't meet them? How/will they help you if you aren't meeting those expectations? Are you expected to start functioning at the level of a paramedic, or will you be allowed to perfect some basic skills? Will exceptions be made if you aren't able to interact with patients? Manage a scene? Maintain situational awareness? The list goes on and on...

2) Where would you realistically be working? Non-emergent IFT? Dialysis derby? 911 on a BLS unit? 911 on an ALS unit? Would you be working with somene who would be willing to teach you? Is that person someone who SHOULD be teaching you? Can you pick up things and learn on your own without hand holding if you get a lousy partner? Can you avoid falling into complacency and bad habits if you are doing "BS" calls? Could you even recognize it if you were, and if you do end up with bad habits, could you quickly break them?

3) How quickly do you learn? HOW do you learn? Hands on, books, visual? Can you pick up something after just seeing/doing it once? What kind of life experience do you have? How big is your ego? Can you avoid puffing up like a peacock with your own first successes? Are you easily excitable? Jumpy? Nervous? And believe me, that's just a taste.

There is a lot more that goes into being a competant paramedic than just being able to do some skills and knowing medicine. That is where prior field experience can either help, or hurt you. If you are comfortable talking with doc's, nurses, cops, firefighters, patients, crazy people, drunk people, people who are...not happy about you presence, dispatchers, bystanders, family members, kids and more, that will only help you when you start your internship. If you are allready comfortable doing the EMT skills then you won't need to focus on learning those, but can focus more on what you just learned in class. Knowing how you are able to move a patient and what will/won't work will help you. If you allready know the general way a call should run, barring system differences of course, that will help you. If you have started to develop situational awareness and your own "spidey-sence" so you know when something is hinky, that will help you. Being able to take in a scene and pick up all the signs that will help with your diagnosis/save you *** is an invaulable skill. Knowing the basic's of how to use ALS equipment, even if you can't interpret/use it on your own will help. And so on and so on.

Having all or any of the above, even only a little, will help; you will be able to hit the ground running so to speak, and having that down will make learning how to do everything else much easier.

Of course, you need to bear in mind that you may not be able to learn any of that, depending on where you would be working, and who it would be with. Or you could end up thinking that you are learning these things only to be completely wrong; that'd be bad. You might also go to a school that has an appropriately long internship portion (though that type of school would be rare, to put it mildly) so prior experience wouldn't be as vaulabe. You might be able to begin to learn these things during your internship and come out without an issue. It really depends on you. Some people will go straight through without a problem for many reasons, and end up great paramedics. Some will be average. Some will be lousy paramedics (and may not know it for many reasons). Some may not make it through school at all because they HAD OR DIDN"T HAVE prior experience. It just depends.

Take a realistic look at who you are and what your options are, and think about how polished you want to be when you finish school, and how you could be when you finish. The right answer for you might be to work for awhile, or go through school now.

Anybody who tells you that there is only one answer...well...to put it mildly they are wrong.

Anybody who thumps their chest as an example of how to do it...also wrong, to put it VERY mildly.

(and regardless of the above, I wouldn't bother going EMT>AEMT>Paramedic)
 
private companies like to see years of experience for a paramedic. i've heard the word "trainwreck" used a few too many times for going straight to emt-p.

might get you a job easier, and you might learn a few things along the way.
 
cut for brevity

I respectfully but vehemently disagree.

Anybody who tells you that there is only one answer...well...to put it mildly they are wrong.

I don't always get things right.

But I am pretty sure I got this one down.

I have never heard of an RN being forced to work as an LPN first.

Now a Doctor forced to work as a PA.

I agree that there are many intangible skills in beiing anykind of provider, however, a good understanding of medical knowledge is of more benefit before you start seeing patients rather than after.

Unlearning over simplified concepts and focusing in on "what really matters in the field" is a surefire way to make learning advanced information very difficult. Especially adult learners having to unlearn things.

With rare exception these days, a basic is nothing more than a set of hands with a few meaningless skills. Jobs where a basic can get good experience are also almost impossible to find/get. Which means the likelyhood of getting bad experience is considerably greater than good experience.

Furthermore, talking to docs and nurses is a lot easier when you have something intelligent to say. Being nice to somebody who doesn't know what they are talking about speaks to the professionalism of the listener, not the speaker.

I also know what you mean about learning how to manage a scene, etc. I was very fortunate to start my career when a Basic might be the only care provider showing up in a 911 system. But again, with the exception of some rare services, that just doesn't exist anymore.

While rural services may be more likely to have such, the volume of calls is usually so low it doesn't matter anyway. You could spend years working on an ambulance and not see the patient load of a busy ED in a day.

Basics now-a-days can look forward to the dialysis derby. With the occasional nursing home call where the treatment provided by BLS hardly matters outside of a ride.

Maybe they will drive by a car accident and wait for 911 to show up on a lucky day.

What's more, the job market for basics is so tight, making yourself more marketable with a higher education credential is a wise move. Otherwise you could be like these California people coming here wondering why there are no jobs.

Also consider, with the new and recent changes in the Basic curriculum, including more basic science like PH, physiology, etc. A new basic in these next few years is going to be far more educated and valuable than a basic under the old curriculum.

This is not the 1980s, without basically hitting the FD job lottery, a basic is not going to get all of these intangible skills before medic school.

I have also noticed after teaching medics for just over 9 years that the only people who advocate being a basic first are people who struggled with paramedic class because for whatever reason, were in over their head.

You are better off taking a college A&P course or General Chemistry than wasting time getting comfortable lifting cots, applying high flow o2 on everyone, and spineboarding every patient you see.

I will also admit there are valuable lessons to be learned doing IFT, like seeing disease progressions over time, learning commonly prescribed medications, and interactions with non EMS facilities. However, when you step into the realm of self directed learning, you need a strong base to work from. Otherwise you can make some considerable and volumous mistakes, which would negate any benefit of time spent.

Prior experience demonstrates the trade mentality that holds EMS back from being a real profession. It is also wisdom from a world that doesn't exist anymore.

"private companies like to see years of experience for a paramedic. i've heard the word "trainwreck" used a few too many times for going straight to emt-p.

might get you a job easier, and you might learn a few things along the way.
"

I could use the word trainwreck to describe many new doctors, but they are still far more capable than any experienced Basic.
 
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I respectfully but vehemently disagree.

I don't always get things right.

But I am pretty sure I got this one down.

I have never heard of an RN being forced to work as an LPN first.

Now a Doctor forced to work as a PA.
I've never heard of a board-certified doctor who had less than a 2-year residency and a lot of time seeing patients as a MS3 and MS4. I may be off on the years, but I'm sure you see my point. I'm not going to touch RN's as it isn't germain to this, but I will mention that complaints about the lack of basic knowledge and skills for new RN grads seem to be common. (not suggesting that they work prior to school, more that even the vaunted "huge" amounts of clinicals they go through aren't enough)

I agree that there are many intangible skills in beiing anykind of provider, however, a good understanding of medical knowledge is of more benefit before you start seeing patients rather than after.
You did notice that very little of what I mentioned had anything to do with direct patient care, right? Those would the the "intangibles," and, for some people, having them down will make learning and applying the medicine so much easier.

Unlearning over simplified concepts and focusing in on "what really matters in the field" is a surefire way to make learning advanced information very difficult. Especially adult learners having to unlearn things.
Absolutely. Which is why having prior experience, or the wrong kind of prior experience may be a very bad thing for some people.

Jobs where a basic can get good experience are also almost impossible to find/get. Which means the likelyhood of getting bad experience is considerably greater than good experience.
There are still many, many services that run P/B (or some type of lower level) and don't require that the paramedic takes every call. There are still services that send a B/B unit on 911 calls. Even as nothing more than an assistant, that experience could still be beneficial, just not as it relates to direct patient care. And the likelyhood of getting bad experience as a paramedic intern is no different.

Furthermore, talking to docs and nurses is a lot easier when you have something intelligent to say.
Knowing, or being able to figure out what they want/need to know is quite valuable. Of course, if you only deal with people who let you ramble on and run at the mouth then no, it's not worth it. If you deal with people who will cut you off or ignore you when you get to long-winded, and you are the kind of person who can recognize that...it's a good thing. Once again, this could be helpful or harmful, depending on the person. I think you are letting your own experience and personal bias get involved a little to much here.

I also know what you mean about learning how to manage a scene, etc. I was very fortunate to start my career when a Basic might be the only care provider showing up in a 911 system. But again, with the exception of some rare services, that just doesn't exist anymore.
It's not that rare. More get's done during a call than direct care; the partner may be required to be responsible for that, or they may see it happen enough so it get's ingrained in them to ask for it to happen when they are in charge.

Basics now-a-days can look forward to the dialysis derby. With the occasional nursing home call where the treatment provided by BLS hardly matters outside of a ride.
Oh yeah, the majority of them. But not all. Just like everything I said in my post and in this may apply to some, but not all. Which is why there is no set answer, and each person who asks needs to be really clear when they look at what their options are.

What's more, the job market for basics is so tight, making yourself more marketable with a higher education credential is a wise move. Otherwise you could be like these California people coming here wondering why there are no jobs.
Being a paramedic is always a better thing. Well, usually, but that's a different topic. Being a new medic with only a short internship under your belt and getting tossed into the field with no, or very minimal FTO time is a bad thing, and happens all to often. Getting fired because you had only a brief field internship and couldn't live up to the expectations of your service because you couldn't pick up everything you needed to know also would be a bad thing.

Also consider, with the new and recent changes in the Basic curriculum, including more basic science like PH, physiology, etc. A new basic in these next few years is going to be far more educated and valuable than a basic under the old curriculum.
They ain't that great, don't kid yourself. Definetly a (small) step in the right direction though. It doesn't change the fact though, the things that working would help aren't what you would learn in a class, except as concepts.

I have also noticed after teaching medics for just over 9 years that the only people who advocate being a basic first are people who struggled with paramedic class because for whatever reason, were in over their head.
Oh please. I had more respect for you than that. I breezed through my paramedic course and the only non-internship experience I got was at the same time the class was going on. Didn't have to many problems at my job either.

Prior experience demonstrates the trade mentality that holds EMS back from being a real profession. It is also wisdom from a world that doesn't exist anymore.
Actually, saying that prior experience might help demonstrates an honest understanding of how lacking the internship portion generally is, knowing what else goes into being a paramedic besides medicine, and knowing how much better new paramedics could be if things were different. I don't say that to mean that everyone should work before going to medic school, just to say that the system is broken, and for SOME people, prior experience may be helpful. Or harmful.

Like I said originally, there isn't a right or wrong answer. If paramedic education was set up differently that would change. If how paramedic's and EMT's are used was done differently that would change. But right now, with how things are, it's a question that each individual needs to consider, and some will come up with a different answer.
 
Really you're comparing the educational needs and experience from a doctor and a paramedic? And actually doctors do have to go through their residency no?
 
Really you're comparing the educational needs and experience from a doctor and a paramedic? And actually doctors do have to go through their residency no?

Yea, I have a certain amount of insight on that and there are more similarities than you might think.

In many countries graduate doctors do not need a residency to practice. (Usually as a GP, but sometimes under the oversight of a specialist) It comes from the philosophy that all doctors need to be a generalist before they become a specialist.

Technically even in the US, in some states you do not need a residency to be a GP, but good luck getting malpractice insurance without it. (it is said to be impossible)
 
When you graduate BLS school.
 
Really you're comparing the educational needs and experience from a doctor and a paramedic? And actually doctors do have to go through their residency no?

Residency=PA?

That's like saying a nurse must work as a CNA before she can go to RN school. It doesn't happen. It's not needed.
 
Oh please. I had more respect for you than that. I breezed through my paramedic course and the only non-internship experience I got was at the same time the class was going on. Didn't have to many problems at my job either.

And your position is that it can sometimes help, not that it is required.

I should have added to my statement that it is my experience those are the only people who advocate mandatory time as a basic, but I still have not met anyone outside of a forum who advocates mandatory basic time that didn't struggle considerably in medic school.
 
I went through the progression, but in all honesty, EMT-B did nothing for me except give me a sweet way to hit on high school senior girls, EMT-I/85 skipped me through Fort Sam's EMT factory and got me onto a truck for a few months, and Paramedic is looking a lot like a career in the making.

Going straight to Paramedic school isn't a bad idea. We're really hurting for -Ps in New Mexico.
 
I went through the progression, but in all honesty, EMT-B did nothing for me except give me a sweet way to hit on high school senior girls, EMT-I/85 skipped me through Fort Sam's EMT factory and got me onto a truck for a few months, and Paramedic is looking a lot like a career in the making.

Going straight to Paramedic school isn't a bad idea. We're really hurting for -Ps in New Mexico.

How is the job market in new mexico? Pay well?
 
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Not at all, unless you're with Albuquerque Ambulance or a few fire departments.
I'm at the "high-paying" one at $12/hour with a 12on/12 reserve schedule.

The local Borg branch quoted a partner of mine at ~35k/year pretax working 70+ hours/week.

That being said, lots of hours = ~48k for that same partner at my current service. I'm part-time and on track to break $1500 for nine shifts, so it's not horrible.

Median wages out here are around $10-12/hour for 24s and $12-16 for 12s and 8s.
 
Is that for emtb or medics?
 
As a EMT who isn't a paramedic, has little desire to be a paramedic, but has a bachelors degree and after I got my degree, completed courses in Biology, Chemisty, A&P, and Organic Chem, the answer to your question will always vary by the person.

Some will say go to paramedic school right after you finish EMT school.

Others will say go to paramedic school after you have been an EMT for a year.

Some will say EMTs just do dialysis runs, and other IFT trips, while Sasha will tell you as a medic all she does is IFT runs (I think Linus used to also).

Others (like me) have been on a 911 ambulance for over 10 years, and don't need a medic holding my hand to deal with an emergency.

In my experience, the best medics I have worked with on 911 calls had at least a 1 years of 911 experience before they went to paramedic school. Their patient assessment skills are usually better (since they are more experienced), they interact better with other healthcare providers, and they typically are more knowledgeable about the EMS system because they have worked in it. But I am sure there are people who were never EMTs, and just did a two year paramedic program, and came out as amazing providers.

It also depends on the job market you are looking in. Some places have EMT positions, while others only have medic listings. there are also some places that don't have medic openings, or some areas where an EMT can make as much as or more than a paramedic (due to call volumes, financial support, and other factors).

Like I said, I am NOT a paramedic or ALS provider. And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't struggle with the program, considering my academic history. I just know too many overworked/underpaid and miserable paramedic providers to want to join their ranks.
 
I went through the progression, but in all honesty, EMT-B did nothing for me except give me a sweet way to hit on high school senior girls, EMT-I/85 skipped me through Fort Sam's EMT factory and got me onto a truck for a few months, and Paramedic is looking a lot like a career in the making.

Going straight to Paramedic school isn't a bad idea. We're really hurting for -Ps in New Mexico.

slight hijack but would delving deeper and going onwards to als/paramedic like career binding? i only got emt-b to get a feel for it and was asking this question myself about if/when to go on to als.
 
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