Treatment off duty

Oh come on...

we all know that people bleed differently depending on which state or province they get injured in...how can we have national standards when people are so gosh darned different everywhere...?

"yeah well where I work we only splint compound multiple fractures... I hear the folks in the next county do it different..."

John E.
 
Well we are getting into politics here a bit but I believe that the healthcare should be a national thing not a provincial thing as well. But beyond that what do I expect to do except stop excessive bleeding? I have no idea, it would depend on the scenario, it could be something as simple as helping an elderly lady in the hot summer sun to some shade while waiting for the ambulance to arrive, to stopping excessive bleeding. You can say the only scenario that could possibly pop up is a bleeder case. It is not just MVA but could be a seizure or something else in a public place. I had to deal with that before with my ex fiancee she had a seizure and lost consciousness in a theatre while we were out, I helped her the best I could and later while explaining to the doctor what I tried to do to help her, he informed me that I should have actually done the exact opposite.

Well whether we like it or not, the Canada Health Act makes healthcare a provincial thing. Rather than worrying about whether it is provincial or federal, my focus in updating the CHA would be to fix the definition of medical necessity. Is it fair that in Ontario you need to pay $45 for ambulance transport when healthcare is supposedly "free"?

Helping an old lady to find shade will almost surely not save her life. There is very little that you can do while off duty by stopping at an MVC that will help to save someone's life. You asked in your OP what precautions you should take if you stop at an MVC. The first thing I would be concerned about is safety. While on duty, I am paid to take certain risks (e.g. standing on a highway) but I also know that I have coverage if I am injured at work. The second thing I would say is litigation. Even in Canada, people can still sue. The last thing you want while trying to find an EMR/EMT/Paramedic job is a personal lawsuit. I'm not saying they will win as long as you did not do something stupid, but it will still be a pain for you.
 
we all know that people bleed differently depending on which state or province they get injured in...how can we have national standards when people are so gosh darned different everywhere...?

"yeah well where I work we only splint compound multiple fractures... I hear the folks in the next county do it different..."

John E.
Thank you for the uninformed opinion. Although I will admit that if all that was done was care at the EMT-Basic level then you'd be completely accurate in what you said. Problem is, that there are just a couple of things that paramedics can do that a Basic can't, and the further problem is that some of these things won't need to be done depending on your location.

For example: you work in a city that has trauma centers, stroke centers, hospitals with cath labs 24/7, all within less than a 10 minute transport at any hour of the day. Do you really need more than ntg and asa for a cardiac pt? (sure, it'd be nice and I'm not saying that it shouldn't be that way) Not so much. Now say you work in BFE where the nearest community hospital is 1.25 hours away (ground only) and the nearest cath lab is a further 45 minutes away. Should you have more than ntg and asa? Absolutely. IV ntg, beta blockers, potentially thrombolytics... The needs of a service and what they can do will always, to some extent, depend on how long they will be treating a pt. Which is why a national set of protocols is ridiculous.

I think this has been covered several times before.
 
Thank you for the uninformed opinion. Although I will admit that if all that was done was care at the EMT-Basic level then you'd be completely accurate in what you said. Problem is, that there are just a couple of things that paramedics can do that a Basic can't, and the further problem is that some of these things won't need to be done depending on your location.

For example: you work in a city that has trauma centers, stroke centers, hospitals with cath labs 24/7, all within less than a 10 minute transport at any hour of the day. Do you really need more than ntg and asa for a cardiac pt? (sure, it'd be nice and I'm not saying that it shouldn't be that way) Not so much. Now say you work in BFE where the nearest community hospital is 1.25 hours away (ground only) and the nearest cath lab is a further 45 minutes away. Should you have more than ntg and asa? Absolutely. IV ntg, beta blockers, potentially thrombolytics... The needs of a service and what they can do will always, to some extent, depend on how long they will be treating a pt. Which is why a national set of protocols is ridiculous.

I think this has been covered several times before.

Okay but this was a rebuttal to a response that medics in Ontario would need to do things different than those in Saskatchewan, Maybe, but your response doesn't cover that because Ontario alone ranges from the largest city in Canada to northern regions that are only accessible by aircraft therefore within the province of Ontario itself you have this vast difference in scenarios. Which comes back to my position that why can we not nationalize the certification so to have uniformity through out the country?
 
Okay but this was a rebuttal to a response that medics in Ontario would need to do things different than those in Saskatchewan, Maybe, but your response doesn't cover that because Ontario alone ranges from the largest city in Canada to northern regions that are only accessible by aircraft therefore within the province of Ontario itself you have this vast difference in scenarios. Which comes back to my position that why can we not nationalize the certification so to have uniformity through out the country?
Uh...you do know that 1-you're helping to prove my point, and 2-the US EMS system is way different than Candada's.

Big cities in Ontario and places with extreme transport times in Ontario? Well hell! Sounds like the paramedics that go to the northern regions will need to do more and different things than what the paramedics in the cities will!

The issue isn't with standardizing a certification; I'm all for that. A paramedic should be a paramedic no matter where they where taught. (as long as everyone is taught to the same high standard...which wouldn't happen unfortunately) The thing I was referencing is wanting ALL paramedics to have the same PROTOCOLS (the things they follow in treating a pt); it doesn't work for the reason I gave. Train everyone the same (long as the standard is high) but understand that, depending on where they go to work, some will do different things for one reason or another.
 
Uh...you do know that 1-you're helping to prove my point, and 2-the US EMS system is way different than Candada's.

Big cities in Ontario and places with extreme transport times in Ontario? Well hell! Sounds like the paramedics that go to the northern regions will need to do more and different things than what the paramedics in the cities will!

The issue isn't with standardizing a certification; I'm all for that. A paramedic should be a paramedic no matter where they where taught. (as long as everyone is taught to the same high standard...which wouldn't happen unfortunately) The thing I was referencing is wanting ALL paramedics to have the same PROTOCOLS (the things they follow in treating a pt); it doesn't work for the reason I gave. Train everyone the same (long as the standard is high) but understand that, depending on where they go to work, some will do different things for one reason or another.


touche, I only meant that John E's response was a reply to the post that Saskatchewan and Ontario should be different because the nature of the country, response times etc. I do in fact agree that in different situations differing techniques may need to be used. I only responded because this originated because someone disagreed with me that the certification and standards be nationalized due to the difference between the two provinces, and my point is we have just as much difference in the Province of Ontario alone that negates that argument
 
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touche, I only meant that John E's response was a reply to the post that Saskatchewan and Ontario should be different because the nature of the country, response times etc. I do in fact agree that in different situations differing techniques may need to be used. I only responded because this originated because someone disagreed with me that the certification and standards be nationalized due to the difference between the two provinces, and my point is we have just as much difference in the Province of Ontario alone that negates that argument
Eh gotcha ya. Was disagreeing with John E anyway. Cheers.
 
we all know that people bleed differently depending on which state or province they get injured in...how can we have national standards when people are so gosh darned different everywhere...?

"yeah well where I work we only splint compound multiple fractures... I hear the folks in the next county do it different..."

John E.

There is a huge difference in treatment modalities between an agency with a 5 minute transport time and one where the closest hospital can be up to an hour away.
 
Once again...

I see that irony just doesn't seem to work on this forum.

People are people, injuries are injuries, doesn't matter where they are, how it happened or why.

Obviously there are differences between living in a big city and way out yonder in the country.

None of which matters when it comes to things like standardizing health care. Standardising doesn't have to mean that everyone gets the same brand of bandage or that the person that's out in the woods get treated the same as the guy who's collapsed on a street corner.

Have statewide, national would be better but you have to start somewhere, where was I, oh yeah, have standards of care with things like transport time and access to trauma centers and geography taken into account, standardise the training of the responders to actually be health care providers able to make informed decisions about patient treatment instead of absolute minimally trained ambulance drivers,charge the citizens at large for what is, after all, a public service and have at it.

The idea that because one lives in a rural area that they don't deserve the same access to emergency health care is simply ludicrous. The idea that an EMT working in say Los Angeles county can only treat up to a certain point while an EMT working in Riverside county can do more or less is simply ludicrous. If I live in one county or one state and happen to be traveling thru another, has my need for health care magically changed?

As is the idea that county/local/state governments need to mandate health care to the degree that they do is simply outdated. As someone wrote earlier, people bleed the same everywhere.

We need to look at the bigger picture and quit focusing on the same old, same old.

Feel free to disagree.

John E.

P.S. there was nothing uninformed about my earlier expressed opinion.
 
I see that irony just doesn't seem to work on this forum.

People are people, injuries are injuries, doesn't matter where they are, how it happened or why.

Obviously there are differences between living in a big city and way out yonder in the country.

None of which matters when it comes to things like standardizing health care. Standardising doesn't have to mean that everyone gets the same brand of bandage or that the person that's out in the woods get treated the same as the guy who's collapsed on a street corner.

Have statewide, national would be better but you have to start somewhere, where was I, oh yeah, have standards of care with things like transport time and access to trauma centers and geography taken into account, standardise the training of the responders to actually be health care providers able to make informed decisions about patient treatment instead of absolute minimally trained ambulance drivers,charge the citizens at large for what is, after all, a public service and have at it.

The idea that because one lives in a rural area that they don't deserve the same access to emergency health care is simply ludicrous. The idea that an EMT working in say Los Angeles county can only treat up to a certain point while an EMT working in Riverside county can do more or less is simply ludicrous. If I live in one county or one state and happen to be traveling thru another, has my need for health care magically changed?

As is the idea that county/local/state governments need to mandate health care to the degree that they do is simply outdated. As someone wrote earlier, people bleed the same everywhere.

We need to look at the bigger picture and quit focusing on the same old, same old.

Feel free to disagree.

John E.

P.S. there was nothing uninformed about my earlier expressed opinion.

I happen to agree with you, almost entirely. It is the right way to think, it's the right end goal. I disagree with the execution.

Again, without starting the rural v urban or the ALS v BLS debate, it's hard to have the same standards of care everywhere. In the city, its great to say that we will get any patient on whom we appreciate a STEMI to a hospital with PCI within X minutes for the optimum door-to-balloon time (or onset of symptoms-to-balloon time), and we may be able to achieve that goal 90% of the time. That same patient, presenting in a more rural environment may not get to the hospital for X+ 40 minutes, and that may not be a PCI hospital. They both deserve the same standard of care, not disagreement, it just isn’t possible without bringing alternative technology (HEMS is a different discussion).
Another issue inherent in this (again, I’m not trying to revive the vollie debate) is differences in training, experience and monitoring. BostonEMS boasts that because they have a very busy system, and fairly few medics, statistically, each medic averages one tube/month. Because of this, they maintain a very high level of proficiency, and although I don’t have the numbers in front of me, a very high accuracy rate compared to national rates. Can more urban departments maintain that level of proficiency where they MIGHT get one tube every year...? Probably not! Do those more rural patients deserve the same standard of care, of course! There is only so much these departments that only get 200 calls/year can do to keep up their stills. Fred the Head only does so much, and it’s often impractical for these medics to keep up their skills on cadavers. Hey, there was even a town (in of all places, MA) this week that was found to have falsified training records—for several years.

It's hard enough maintaining the staff required to stay in service, let alone maintaining the required training/certifications, then trying to add on additional in-service trainings, it becomes impossible. I saw a study (again, I don’t have it in front of me) that said that skill retention for compressions (CPR) is 8-9 months. Everybody complains that ARC is only a 1-year certification, and the standard for professional rescuer is AHA (I know, there are other reasons).

I happen to live and work in the great state of Taxachusetts. We were just rated as having the best emergency health care system in the country (that isn’t saying much), yet we were rated 33 (D) for Medical Liability Environment. The average malpractice award payment is among the highest in the nation: $437,000 compared to the $285,218 average across the states. This causes a policy environment, where doctors need to over-test, suspecting the zebra (not the horse) when they hear footsteps, just in case. That leads our OEMS to be uber-conservative, and among the least progressive states in the country re: new protocols and procedures.

The idea that we should have universal national protocols scares me. I agree with national treatment guidelines, an aspiration, but I just don’t see it to be practical everywhere.

Do you have an idea of where I am coming from? Am I making sense?
 
Okay just to clarify my position I feel it should be nationalized because I thing certification should follow you where ever you go in the country. I make no claims that different parts of the country would have to have different protocols but an EMT in Ontario should be an EMT in British Columbia, here an EMT in Alberta is a Paramedic in Ontario
 
From what I know, here in AB you can only practice as a first aider when you are off duty, whether you're an EMT, nurse, or neurosurgeon. It's not like yo can do a whole lot without your ambulance, anyway (or, let's face it, with it in many situations, at least as an EMT/PCP). You also cannot be sued UNLESS you do something that a "reasonable professional at your level of training" (some vignette along those lines) would or would not do in a situation (malfeasance/nonfeasance). E.g. if you splint someone's ankle too tight, they lose circulation, and get their toes amputated, you are liable b/c you didn't check CMS after you splinted. I'd say, when in doubt, call 9-1-1 and monitor the patient, unless it's a life-and-death situation where you are more likely to do right than wrong (e.g. choking).
 
Okay just to clarify my position I feel it should be nationalized because I thing certification should follow you where ever you go in the country. I make no claims that different parts of the country would have to have different protocols but an EMT in Ontario should be an EMT in British Columbia, here an EMT in Alberta is a Paramedic in Ontario

It's just titles. EMT in AB is PRIMARY CARE paramedic in ON or BC. The scopes of practice are fairly close, it's just the names that are different. Our Alberta paramedics (EMT-Ps) are the equivalent of ACP in ON, BC, and elsewhere. Just like our EMRs are the equivalent of EMT-Bs in the US, etc.
 
Okay just to clarify my position I feel it should be nationalized because I thing certification should follow you where ever you go in the country. I make no claims that different parts of the country would have to have different protocols but an EMT in Ontario should be an EMT in British Columbia, here an EMT in Alberta is a Paramedic in Ontario

What really seems like pain, is I just read in the EMT-B test prep book, is that with a DTA, if we see an MVA on the side of the road, we have to stop and see if we can help if there is not already emergency personnel there. BUT the "laws" vary by state and county. That just really makes it seem like a pain in the ***, why not just setup a law or guideline at a federal level?
 
Why should it be a national issue when in Canada healthcare is a provincial responsibility? As well, I'm not quite sure what you're referring to about registration fees at least in Ontario. I paid to write my AEMCA but after that I haven't paid anyone registration fees.
I think dobo is referring to Alberta as the cost of writing the EMR exam and registration fee's combined are in the $1000.00 neighbourhood.
 
Okay just to clarify my position I feel it should be nationalized because I thing certification should follow you where ever you go in the country. I make no claims that different parts of the country would have to have different protocols but an EMT in Ontario should be an EMT in British Columbia, here an EMT in Alberta is a Paramedic in Ontario

Are you familiar with the NOCPs?
 
I think dobo is referring to Alberta as the cost of writing the EMR exam and registration fee's combined are in the $1000.00 neighbourhood.

Probably, but that would be a question for the Alberta College of Paramedics then, I guess. Not everyone pays fees that are that high to write their exams, but regardless I don't know why you would expect coverage for actions you take while off duty.
 
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