The practicality of EMT Basics as an emergecy responder

Veneficus

Forum Chief
7,301
16
0
While engaged in the endless threads here about EMTBs expanded scopes, usefulness, demands, etc, and having more time on my hands lately, I was wondering...

Is the service provided by the EMTB level really useful? (not to be confused with service provided by people who are EMTBs as like all providers there are good ones and bad ones)

In standard dinosaur manner, when I became an EMT-B, it was likely that was all anyone who called 911 was getting. We were the primary responders as well as the only prehospital person anyone was likely to see. From Soup to nuts, we ran every aspect of the call.

It seemed to work really well. (For what we knew at the time)

As paramedics became more popular in the area, the EMT was largely relegated to carrying equipment, driving, and performing ordered tasks in the official role as "a borrowed servant."

In this role, all of the benefits of being an EMT before becomming a medic are largely lost.

As our knowledge and technology advanced, the "basic" levels of assessment and intervention have largely become obsolete.

Yet the curriculum still revolves around EMTs being the sole responder in charge. (No doubt in many places they are still)

But for all of the advancement in scope and education, the level of assessment is still woefully under what is required. Evidenced by the stressing of calling for ALS throughout the educational process.

It is generally accepted in medicine, including prehospital, patients should be treated for pain.

It is a medical error to over-treat patients. (though we must admit to accepting some level of over treatment in any acute environment.)

But what do basics bring to the table?

CPR and an AED?
We know that early CPR and defib are effective treatments. But we also know that it is the bystander who will be able to effect this in time. CPR and an AED are useless after 8 minutes of nothing.

Assisting with meds?
Anyone can assist with meds. It doesn't even take a responder.

A handful of meds already carried and utilized by more advanced providers?

A spint?

A backboard?

I think it is obvious that many basics realize or want more treatments to be more effective. From narcan to pain medication.

There are dozens of add on certs in various states to amplify the value of the Basic EMT.

Nothing taught in EMT class is really useful for IFT, where most EMT Basics work.

In an ALS system, the Basic is far more useful as the tech for the medic than an independant provider.

Perhaps we should just come to terms that with the levels of medical care and technology expected today, the solution is not to "upskill" or "up educate" the EMT Basic.

The solution may be to just get rid of it?

The recently revamped AEMT is basically the minimum skill set and knowledge base that incorperates all of the "upskills" and add on meds Basics seem to think they need.

Should AEMT be the minimum to work on a EMS transport unit?

With the Basic level being the minimum level of "first responder."

Even at 150 hours for EMT, it is reasonable to do away with the first responder level entirely.
 

MrJones

Iconoclast
652
168
43
On the other hand, there are those here who would argue that one must spend time as a practicing EMT-B prior to starting medic training in order to be a competent and effective medic.

:huh:
 
OP
OP
V

Veneficus

Forum Chief
7,301
16
0
On the other hand, there are those here who would argue that one must spend time as a practicing EMT-B prior to starting medic training in order to be a competent and effective medic.

:huh:

I have already utterly dispelled that nonsense so completely, I will not do it again here. Not only from the standpoint of an educator but also from going that route myself.
 

NYMedic828

Forum Deputy Chief
2,094
3
36
On the other hand, there are those here who would argue that one must spend time as a practicing EMT-B prior to starting medic training in order to be a competent and effective medic.

:huh:

Just as you must spend time as a practicing RN/PA to become an MD? O wait... You don't...-_-

My EMT class was out learned in under 2 initial weeks of my medic program. My EMT class was an absolute was of time.
 

MrJones

Iconoclast
652
168
43
I have already utterly dispelled that nonsense so completely, I will not do it again here. Not only from the standpoint of an educator but also from going that route myself.

Maybe so, but there are still those who have not seen the light. I'm on your side of the argument, btw*, but felt it appropriate to acknowledge the opposing POV.



* I'm currently in a paramedic program that starts w/ EMTB certification and continues up through EMTP certification with just the usual clinicals/ride time found in any paramedic program and no requirement to work as an EMT outside of the program. I may start my ride time a bit behind the power curve in comparison to an EMTB who has been on the street for a while, but I view that as a minor issue that will self-correct in short order.
 

Medic Tim

Forum Deputy Chief
Premium Member
2,140
84
48
Vene that is pretty much what happens here. The first responder is a 200 or so hour course that is about the same as emt b in the us. Ourfirst level of Medic is about the AEMT and our advanced medic is close to the us paramedic . On the east coast most all ambulances (all of them) are staffed by paramedics. First responders are rarely used or used in very rural areas. As I have said in other posts similar to this topic ...... People here become paramedics to be paramedics, it is not a stepping stone to rn or whatever. To be a pcp or primary care Medic it is 9 months to 2 years depending on the province. Advanced care medics have an additional 1 to 2 years of education and usually requires at least a few years as a pcp to even be considered. It is also very expensive to go to Medic school. The higher educational standards, time commitment, and financial commitment usually weed out a lot of people.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

medicdan

Forum Deputy Chief
Premium Member
2,494
19
38
Maybe the more important question is whether the mere transport is more important than the field assessment and basic treatment. I'd argue that in some cases, the transport is the beneficial intervention for the patient, not the field assessment and field treatment.
 
OP
OP
V

Veneficus

Forum Chief
7,301
16
0
Vene that is pretty much ebay happens here. The first responder is a 200 or so hour course that is about the same as emt b in the us. Ourfirst legs of Medic is about the AEMT and our advanced medic is close toy the us paramedic . On the east coast most all ambulances (all of them) are staffed by paramedics. First respondersare rarely used or used in very rural areas. As I have said in other posts similar to this topic ...... People here become paramedics to be paramedics, it is not a stepping stone to rn or whatever. To be a pcp or primary care Medic it is 9 months to 2 years depending on the province. Advanced care medics have an additional 1 to 2 years of education and usually requires at least a few years as a pcp to even be considered. It is also very expensive to go to Medic school. The higher educational standards, time commitment, and financial commitment usually weed out a lot of people.

I am not talking about weeding people out.

I am just wondering if we need to simply ackowledge that the Basic level is just not going to meet the needs or expectations anymore.

There was a time when surgeons didn't go to medical school. But as knowledge and medicine advanced, it became needed for them to.
 

Medic Tim

Forum Deputy Chief
Premium Member
2,140
84
48
I am not talking about weeding people out.

I am just wondering if we need to simply ackowledge that the Basic level is just not going to meet the needs or expectations anymore.

There was a time when surgeons didn't go to medical school. But as knowledge and medicine advanced, it became needed for them to.

I understand

I did not intend to stress the weeding out part. With fewer providers there will be more demand. There will be better work conditions and better wages. Higher education is the key to it all. I am sorry if I am taking this in a different direction than you intended but I believe it does play a role.

If it were up to me the AEMT would be the minimum staffing for an ambulance and Paramedics would have degrees.

The traditional, take everyone to the ER needs to go away. Code 3 or running hot to and from everything needs to go away. It puts everyone on the road at risk and all because someone panicked over something benign. Providers need to be able to use common sense and clinical judgement to treat the pt they have in front of them. A few hundred hours is no where near enough. The current medic level is not enough though that is for another thread.
 

Jambi

Forum Deputy Chief
1,099
1
36
Medic Tim beat me to it. I was going to suggest a comparison to Canada/UK/NZ "Basics."

How and to what level are they trained, and what is their scope (for lack of a better term).

Contrast that to EMR and EMT. I don't have the knowledge to do a good comparison outside of knowing that our northern cousins receive longer (better) training and operate with greater responsibility that do our American Basics.

I'm with Vene here. Our entry level is far too elementary. Any change to this is/will be opposed by large fire organizations that want their firefighters "trained" with the least amount of time and money involved so they can say, "Look! We have paramedics too! We're trained too!" <_<

American AEMT should be entry level and require actual academic education as part of it.

If I could get my basic students to have English, Math, Basic A&P, Intro Chem and a Psych or Sociology class, much of our "basic academic skills" problems would go away.
 
OP
OP
V

Veneficus

Forum Chief
7,301
16
0
I don't think it is just a question of training and education.

That has been hashed out before.

What I am wondering is if the demands of today have basically made the basic level pointless.
 

bahnrokt

Forum Lieutenant
150
0
0
Before I got into EMS I was under the impression that the point of an ambulance is to rapidly transport a sick or injured person to a hospital. That was the main goal of an ambulance 30-40 years ago before we started to move the ER into the field.
The vast majority of PTs that medics touch these days are not that critical. Most of them could be transported BLS with no difference in outcome. Getting a line in now vs in 15 min when they are in the ER, it doesn't really have a big effect on long term outcome for a lot of PTs.

To me it comes down to is it better to load the pt and run hot to the ER or to wait 10-20min while a medic ****ers around with an IV, some drugs, monitor, etc and then leave. I know the best answer is for the medic to work while the rig drives, but most of the medics in my system hate to work in a moveing vehicle.

I think the point I am moveing toward is that most patients will do just fine with a qualified BLS crew.
 

Jambi

Forum Deputy Chief
1,099
1
36
What I am wondering is if the demands of today have basically made the basic level pointless.


Yes it is, except for those places that would otherwise have nothing. Even then, the additional training from Basic-AEMT is negligible and should be skipped.
 

Medic Tim

Forum Deputy Chief
Premium Member
2,140
84
48
Before I got into EMS I was under the impression that the point of an ambulance is to rapidly transport a sick or injured person to a hospital. That was the main goal of an ambulance 30-40 years ago before we started to move the ER into the field.
The vast majority of PTs that medics touch these days are not that critical. Most of them could be transported BLS with no difference in outcome. Getting a line in now vs in 15 min when they are in the ER, it doesn't really have a big effect on long term outcome for a lot of PTs.

To me it comes down to is it better to load the pt and run hot to the ER or to wait 10-20min while a medic ****ers around with an IV, some drugs, monitor, etc and then leave. I know the best answer is for the medic to work while the rig drives, but most of the medics in my system hate to work in a moveing vehicle.

I think the point I am moveing toward is that most patients will do just fine with a qualified BLS crew.

Most of those pt's you are talking about do not need the ER. A consult or a family md visit or an urgent care center are usually what a pt needs.

I rarely ever go LS to the hospital. Besides the fact it isn't safe you do not save time, you increase the pt's anxiety and most people are horrible at driving code. You can go on and on. A smooth ride is better than a fast ride.
 

NYMedic828

Forum Deputy Chief
2,094
3
36
At this point in the US there is simply too many EMTs to be able to come to a simple solution to the problem.

In my opinion, the only way to fix EMS, is to let it fall, and rebuild from the ground up.
 

nocoderob

Forum Crew Member
56
0
0
The "B" training is too basic. And the class is easy thus the reason there are so many. It seem's backward's but, I'd like to see an advanced type of emt. We used to have EMT II (which was eliminated in favor of "P") which had limited als capability. That way a basic would do IFT and the advanced would work alongside the paramedic. That would be a much more harmoniou's team as they are similar but, the medic would be the team leader with the "A" not far behind. (Think doctor and RN as opposed to doctor and CNA) The disparity of training and ability between a basic and medic is too extreme.

Quoted from Medic Tim:
The traditional, take everyone to the ER needs to go away. Code 3 or running hot to and from everything needs to go away.

Absolutely. Not everyone needs a ride to the ED, which is opposed by most companie's as transport's mean potential dollar's. There is no reason we could not arrive, assess, and recommend other mean's of transport. SF EMS can do it but, they are run by the city which could be the reason why they can.
Code 3 to most calls needs to go away also. We get code 2 response's to old lady's that have fallen with broken bone's and code 3 to 22 year old's with abd pain all the time.
 

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
11,322
48
48
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=30919
Jambi Quote: Yes it is, except for those places that would otherwise have nothing. Even then, the additional training from Basic-AEMT is negligible and should be skipped.
Agreed.
bahnrokt Quote: To me it comes down to is it better to load the pt and run hot to the ER or to wait 10-20min while a medic ****ers around with an IV, some drugs, monitor, etc and then leave. I know the best answer is for the medic to work while the rig drives, but most of the medics in my system hate to work in a moveing vehicle.

I think the point I am moveing toward is that most patients will do just fine with a qualified BLS crew.

Agreed.

We keep making sweeping generalizations based reactively to one or another paradigm, and those are either an urban heart attack, or a rural motor vehicle accident (the latter being the one for which EMT A's and P's were invented by DOT). Then the governments, EMS employers, and eager practitioners who don't want to go to the expense and trouble to upgrade their training from Basic to Paramedic, or Paramedic to another technician/PA/FNP or MD/DO started creating all these hyphenated basic EMT's, which muddles the issues of interstate accreditation for hiring, standardization, funding, and accountability. Also fragments the prehospital EMS practitioners with an ersatz internal hierarchy.

With infinite money and suitable candidates, we can do both paradigms and everything in between, but more and more evidence-based science and monetary realities force us to start thinking about practicalities. Yet we don't. We want EMT-B's to start IV's, we don't want to attend the prerequisite trainings but still give drugs (necessitating protocols/standing orders decried as "cookbooks").

As has been established after first aid, with urban gunshot wounds (hospital/blood/diagnostics/surgery); and CVA's (hospital/diagnostics/surgery or TPA); and MI's ("chain of survival" ends with hospital/diagnostics/surgery or other technique, or discharge), yes, you do have to get the pt in promptly. In rural/frontier areas, the important but not definitive early treatments require widespread practitioners which the economies and populations won't support much higher than EMT-B or First Responder. The interfacility transfers even in urban settings often prudently require someone able and willing to do something besides wring their hands and drive faster, which sounds like a driving infraction, but so be it.;)

Just decide where the floor needs to be (basic , paramedic, or some mutant in between),establish training and certification, clean out the other horsehocky categories, and quit screwing around.

PS:Quoted from Medic Tim:The traditional, take everyone to the ER needs to go away. Code 3 or running hot to and from everything needs to go away.
True, but then you need field practitioners far better qualified than a Basic.

There are many cases where something which appears innocuous is the (sometimes imminent) precursor to something ruinous; the excuse "My training didn't cover that" won't cut it. Although MOST calls are not requiring of EMT transport, they need someone with much more diagnostic training and experience than a Basic (or hyphenated-Basic, Advanced Whoopeedoo or whatever) will have. Not talking Andromeda Strain or "House MD"'s "paraneoplastic syndrome", we're talking CVA's, infections, aortic aneurysms, sexually transmitted diseases, early dementia, mishaps of pregnancies, and basic psychiatric/psychological crises, to name just a few.

PPS: here's a thought. Instead of spreading EMT's around and trying to bring the hospital to the doorstep, why not reverse the trend and make more urgent and non-ER care available in a more-disseminated fashion, using modern technology and telemedicine to allow the (re)creation of....community hospitals? Doctor's offices?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Schroeder

Forum Probie
23
0
0
In my (very limited) experience, the system works quite well. I see EMT-B's as the gate keepers. Getting there first, making the Sick/Not Sick decision is very important. We keep the resources allocated where they are needed most. Then again that goes back to the whole dual Medic vs Medic/Basic argument.

If the patient really needs more than BLS, even a little bit, they're more than likely going to need a Medic anyway. The rest of what we see can easily be handled by Basics. We don't use EMT-I's here for that reason.
 

nocoderob

Forum Crew Member
56
0
0
In my (very limited) experience, the system works quite well. I see EMT-B's as the gate keepers. Getting there first, making the Sick/Not Sick decision is very important. We keep the resources allocated where they are needed most. Then again that goes back to the whole dual Medic vs Medic/Basic argument.

If the patient really needs more than BLS, even a little bit, they're more than likely going to need a Medic anyway. The rest of what we see can easily be handled by Basics. We don't use EMT-I's here for that reason.

I find this system odd. Shouldn't the medic do the assessment and triage down to BLS if that is what is needed?
 

Schroeder

Forum Probie
23
0
0
What do you see that is odd about it?

Unless there are certain indicators in the 911 call, BLS is dispatched. We arrive, and make our Sick/Not sick call based on our protocols, MOI, NOI etc. This way, BLS providers get very good at handling "not sick" patients, and ALS only handle "sick" patients. We have adequate tools to handle sick patients until Medics arrive.

The resources are allocated appropriately, and you usually get a response from someone who has lots of experience doing what they do.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're asking?
 
Top