Soon to be EMT-b, But an advocate for Medical Mariujana

Veneficus said:
Please if you would share with me what published sources you based your conclusions from. I am sure we could all submit competing anecdotes.

I also like to think I have some idea about pharmacology. I have posted at length the indications and actions of THC as well as many considerations in its prescription. Laudanum was once available without a prescription and used commonly. Was it also harmless compared to some of the "snake oils" also available at the time?
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Show me a thc OD and we can "submit competing anecdotes" from that starting point. I've seen 100s of prescription pill ODs as I'm sure we all have, I've seen alcohol,heroin, meth, coke, etc. ODs. Never seen a thc OD...

Sure marijuana tars up the lungs, etc., in that realm it is not "harmless," but is it dangerous? LOL, at this point 10s of millions know better.

This whole debate is pretty meaningless - I think we all agree EMS "professionals" have no buisness consuming marijuana. I have no prob with drug tests or whatever. I would just like to clear out the hypocrisy. The medic earlier who suggested the kid try aderall to kick his pot habit is way out of line.
 
Getting high is juvenile.

When I was young they tried to justify it as being mind-expanding and all that. The rare hallucinogenic "bad trip" aside, what we newly senior citizens remember about the Sixties (those of us who can...) and drug use, and cannabis is a drug, is that it was silly and largely a waste of time folks engaged in because it made them feel daring, or they were habituated, or they figured they could score sex easier*. That's the unvarnished truth.

How does this link in? Some folks basically stood in line at med marijuana clinics and rapped with their line buddies. Over 80 percent admitted they were there to get legally high.

THC by Rx? Sure. License to toke? Come to Sacramento and meet some of the advocates, they hurt their cause more than anything else.

*So now they do the same things at the local bar. Sometimes we never learn, do we?;B)
 
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loadngo said:
Show me a thc OD and we can "submit competing anecdotes" from that starting point. I've seen 100s of prescription pill ODs as I'm sure we all have, I've seen alcohol,heroin, meth, coke, etc. ODs. Never seen a thc OD...
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I have never seen a nicotine OD either. By that logic cigarettes are not dangerous. However, hallucinating as well as reduced cognitive and motor ability is most certainly dangerous.

It is logical based on mechanism of action that with a high enough dose of THC a person could completely shut down their CNS. It is also quite possible that an incapacitating dose is reached first. However, most people reach an incapacitating dose of many drugs prior to an OD. I think your logic on this is a bit flawed. I still wait for published evidence from any scientific body.

loadngo said:
Sure marijuana tars up the lungs, etc., in that realm it is not "harmless," but is it dangerous? LOL, at this point 10s of millions know better.
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The respiratory complications are not nearly as significant in the short or longterm as GABA inhibition. Especially since removing THC does not equate with the neurons resuming normal function. I used an example of laudanum in my last post because at one point everyone in the entire known world thought it was harmless. a person didn't even have to go to an apothacary or physician to buy it. Less than 100 years has passed since hundereds of millions if not billions of people figured out smoking was harmful. I am not convinced by the ignorance of tens of millions. How many millions of Americans (or people around the world) think defibrillation "jump starts" a heart?

loadngo said:
This whole debate is pretty meaningless - I think we all agree EMS "professionals" have no buisness consuming marijuana. I have no prob with drug tests or whatever. I would just like to clear out the hypocrisy. The medic earlier who suggested the kid try aderall to kick his pot habit is way out of line.
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The thread is about the medical use of marijuana (and by extension any form of cannabinoid), not the social acceptance.

The body produces cannabinoid endogenously. It is part of neurotransmission. What would happen if you gave a patient too much epinephrine or dopamine. Both of those are endogenous neurotransmitters as well. Are they also not dangerous? How many epinephrine or dopamine ODs have you witnessed?

I am all for intellectual debate on any and all medical treatments, but if all you can provide are positions such as this, I am submit you will need more knowledge to be a productive participant.
 
"Loadngo"?

Just kidding, but sounds like you ought to be the med marijuana advocate! B)
 
Oh how mighty we are with our finger pointed at others....

Everyone is very quick to jump on the bandwagon for MM.....whether that bandwagon is for it.... or against it.....opinions are like a**holes....

Say hello to my A**hole ;)

In 2006, the Pharmaceutical Industry grossed sales of over 683 BILLION DOLLARS. Pills are highly misused, and misused by the very "model citizens" that love to criticize MM users. When "Soccer Mom Sally" gets a script for 30 xanax a month because she is tired of the stress of being a mom.....she is just as guilty.

Prescription drugs are HIGHLY ABUSED BY ALL CLASSES of SOCIETY.....

And the Docs that prescribe them are committing crimes by giving out those scripts to people they know honestly don't really need them......
 
meastt said:
And the Docs that prescribe them are committing crimes by giving out those scripts to people they know honestly don't really need them......
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What crime is that?

Incidentally, people do "doctor shop" by going from physician to physician untill they find one that will give them what they want for their self dx. I know of a doc you could get some propofol from if that is your thing. :) He really needs the money for his legal troubles.

Big Pharm... If I owned a pharm company I would want my drug to be over the counter. Everyone "needs it" everyone can buy it and it would be so cheap I could sell it to billions every day. It would be more "beneficial" than aspirin and more addictive than nicotine.

Selling drugs that have all kinds of barriers for a person to go through to get and are usable by only a small percentage of people (like factor VII) is just not good business. I think I would just rather sell alcohol.

I'm not really a defender of pharm companies, but a spade is a spade. Any business needs to make a profit and unless people decide they want nationalized medicine, those profits are demanded by shareholders. It is quite impossible to have inexpensive medicine, private medicine, and low taxes.

The American people have chosen private medicine. May they receive all that they ask for in abundance. It is a rather old argument to pit the haves vs. the have nots without any responsibility for the have nots. The ignorant mob certainly showed all those intellectuals how much better private medicine is.

I am quite intrigued by the marijuana issue. Nobody argues for uncontrolled opioids which have far more medical uses. How about amphetamine? More demonstratable medical uses than THC also.

Arguing against prohibition by promoting the spectre of people not receiving needed "medicine" isn't going to work. It would be easier to hold a tea party and rally around individual rights. You might even find a big sponsor like Phillip Morris to fund the campaign.

As for harmless, recently a very smart person mentioned the effects of alkaloids in marijuana. Most chemotheraputic agents are alkaloids, they kill cells in the billions. (so super script here for scientific notation 1,000,000,000s)Excellent for cancer, no good for psych.

At what point is a "cure" worse than the disease? Frontal labotomy will reduce many psychologic and psychiatric symptoms. It is even a one time surgical treatment. (my favorite, instant gratification, no return customers type of medicine)

Perhaps lifestyle modification would be a better treatment? Less worring about having the latest greatest electronic gear, bigger homes, and all the consumer targeted products might reduce many psych issues.

Of course the latest version of the DSM is starting to address many current over dx and prescription issues. Have a look. You can even leave a comment.

http://www.dsm5.org/Pages/Default.aspx

Is anyone going to try and argue the scientific benefits for MJ over current psych therapies? I don't think psychiatry is even real medical science, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a decent argument. Be the Devil's advocate.
 
meastt said:
Oh how mighty we are with our finger pointed at others....

Everyone is very quick to jump on the bandwagon for MM.....whether that bandwagon is for it.... or against it.....opinions are like a**holes....

Say hello to my A**hole ;)

In 2006, the Pharmaceutical Industry grossed sales of over 683 BILLION DOLLARS. Pills are highly misused, and misused by the very "model citizens" that love to criticize MM users. When "Soccer Mom Sally" gets a script for 30 xanax a month because she is tired of the stress of being a mom.....she is just as guilty.

Prescription drugs are HIGHLY ABUSED BY ALL CLASSES of SOCIETY.....

And the Docs that prescribe them are committing crimes by giving out those scripts to people they know honestly don't really need them......
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Here's a little more than "opinion". Examples have already been posted from state statutes but feel free to look up those from your own state to find out the "facts".

You get caught using or possessing an illegal substance, you put your license at risk.

You get caught abusing perscription drugs to where the safety of your patients and co-workers are at risk, you can also lose your license.

If the soccer mom is working in a medical field and is found to be abusing perscription meds, her license will be in jeopardy. At the very least she will be monitored by the licensing board for many years or until her license is revoked.

Not all the blame goes to the doctors. Nobody tells patients they have to collect perscriptions from many different doctors except those who have learned to abuse the system. If you or your family who sees you more than the 10 minutes once a month, fail to recognize you have a substance abuse problem, part of the blames also goes there. If your ambulance partner fails to address your substance abuse problem or just turns a blind eye, risking all including the patient, then part of the blame goes there.

You can preach all you want about your "rights" but if the substance is illegal or you abuse a legal medication, the results are the same when you must answer with your license.
 
meastt said:
And the Docs that prescribe them are committing crimes by giving out those scripts to people they know honestly don't really need them......
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Incidentally, how did you come to that decision doctor?
 
meastt said:
When "Soccer Mom Sally" gets a script for 30 xanax a month because she is tired of the stress of being a mom.....she is just as guilty.
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I can agree with that.

"You stupid potheads! You all will amount to nothing in life..."

*cracks open a bottle of Adderall and Vicodin and downs both*
 
TripsTer said:
I can agree with that.

"You stupid potheads! You all will amount to nothing in life..."

*cracks open a bottle of Adderall and Vicodin and downs both*
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What if soccer mom sally has post partum depression? Instead of the Xanax she can just kill herself?

Maybe you have heard of women so depressed they have taken the lives of their kids to "save them" from such misery.

I think you guys fail to realize that prior to high speed media, many incidents simply went unreported. As well, human pathology evolves over time. (there is a whole science of paleopathology) How many 80 year old women had osteoporosis in 1918? Relatively few. They didn't live that long. Prior to cattle domestication Malaria in humans was unheard of. How many American's today die of scurvey or iodine deficency?

If 20% of 300 million Americans are treated for psych issues (not counting the ones that probably could use it) is it a failure of 1/5 the population? Perhaps a pathology of modern society? You know like obesity, hypertension, and PTSD.

I don't use any medications regularly legal or illegal. (now and again some ibuprofin or some TUMS)But I do advocate using the best medications available for people who might benefit from it. I am all for arguing why a medication should or should not be used. But please make it an informed medical argument.

Do you know what USAF pilots are purposely prescribed to help them remain alert? Did WWII pilots need medication? Ask around.
 
Veneficus said:
Do you know what USAF pilots are purposely prescribed to help them remain alert?
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I know that one. Dextroamphetamine. IIRC a SII drug. Nasty little bugger too
 
jtpaintball70 said:
I know that one. Dextroamphetamine. IIRC a SII drug. Nasty little bugger too
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Remember to salute and support the amphetamine users defending the country.

(I didn't think anyone would get the answer so fast, are you a pilot?)
 
Veneficus said:
Remember to salute and support the amphetamine users defending the country.

(I didn't think anyone would get the answer so fast, are you a pilot?)
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Nope, just an AF brat. And some of my best friends here in ABQ that aren't EMS are .mil.
 
Sorry to respond so late.....but with school and work and all....

So first off yes, i am fully aware of what certain occupational fields in the military are prescribed for combat operations. I was one of them, we were prescribed amphetamines AND ambien for continuous combat operations..... and when i was shot, i was prescribed percocet.....I used for about a week until the pain was manageable and then i stopped.

Bottom line, my argument was an OPINION as I clearly pointed out in the first post.....

Also long post and emotion driven words do not give you the right to call your post a "informed medical argument".....lengthy words and a fist in in the air do not and HAVE NEVER equated to an "informed" anything...


My only and STILL my only OPINION is........

Some people may benefit from MM use (end stage cancer) and many others will abuse it......just as in the Big Pharm industry.
 
meastt said:
Also long post and emotion driven words do not give you the right to call your post a "informed medical argument".....lengthy words and a fist in in the air do not and HAVE NEVER equated to an "informed" anything....
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Fist in the air and emotionally driven are not really my style. Way too small minded angry mob-ish.

Mordant, sardonic, and satirical I find more appealing.

The Jester in King Lear one of my favorite literary characters.

I would think my knowledge and experience in topics such as medicine, anthropology, world affairs, and economics would equate to an informed opinion. Particularly where disease and theraputic trends are concerned would equate to an informed opinion.

I am curious to know what abuses the pharm industry is perpetrating. How is there alleged abuses different from a medical insurance company? A medical supply manufacturer? A personal injury lawyer? Or even a salesman or tradesman?

Is it possible to blame part of a dysfunctional system for the ills of the whole system? Is it just the need for a scapegoat to allow some level of mental security?

I have to say a soldier who opines pharmacological therapy for mothers while taking medications that in society is often attributed (rightly or wrongly inconsequential) to undersirable members burdening society a bit of a double standard.

What do you think would be the best treatment for PTSD? Would you find THC acceptable? Ambien? Lithium?
 
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