Sodium Bicarb - Re-evaulated

Your right but what about these patients who are severely acidotic when we pull up? Should the acidosis be addressed sooner than later? Yes, immediate CPR is starting to address the acidosis immediately by providing some perfusion, but is it possible in the field to address acidosis that is additive to just CPR?

It great to say acidosis is better treated in a hospital where more diagnostics can be utilized but until we can get the patient to point B we need to figure out what is best at point A and if there is something more that can be done.
 
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First, the conclusions of this article are difficult to consider seriously when the author has a lack of understanding the basis of acidosis in cardiac arrest (the accumulation of CO2 is the primary culprit, not lactic acid).
Second, there is a considerable body of research, by others of considerably greater credibility, that shows bicarb to be of little (if any) benefit.

Actually in the absence of O2 (as the case of cardiac arrest) cellular respiration shifts from aerobic to anaerobic. Fermentation follows glycolysis where lactic acid and ethyl alcohol are produced intracellular (Also note ATP stores are depleted thus preventing active transport of the acid out of the cell). These compounds do not disassociate in a aqueous solution very easily as does carbonic acid. Carbonic acid is unstable in serum and shifts towards its conjugate base. I would also think that compressions would play a role in mechanical expulsion of CO2 gas. I will have to do some reading up on this to be more definate.
 
Actually in the absence of O2 (as the case of cardiac arrest) cellular respiration shifts from aerobic to anaerobic. Fermentation follows glycolysis where lactic acid and ethyl alcohol are produced intracellular (Also note ATP stores are depleted thus preventing active transport of the acid out of the cell). These compounds do not disassociate in a aqueous solution very easily as does carbonic acid. Carbonic acid is unstable in serum and shifts towards its conjugate base. I would also think that compressions would play a role in mechanical expulsion of CO2 gas. I will have to do some reading up on this to be more definate.

Yes, you are correct in noting that lactic acid is a product of the anaerobic metabolism that occurs when tissues are not perfused...as in cardiac/respiratory arrest. However, the quantities of lactic acid produced are not the primary contributor to the acidosis. It is the accumulation of CO2, in the form of carbonic acid, that is THE primary contributor to serum acidosis.
By the time that lactic acid would accumulate in pathological levels, the organism/patient has reached end stage organ death.
It's fun and wonderful to see that people are thinking and exploring the basic science behind what we do. Keep in mind what we do is PRE-hospital medicine. Critical lactic acidosis requires dialysis. My service, although progressive, is cheap and won't give me the latest greatest portable dialysis unit.
 
Your right but what about these patients who are severely acidotic when we pull up? Should the acidosis be addressed sooner than later? Yes, immediate CPR is starting to address the acidosis immediately by providing some perfusion, but is it possible in the field to address acidosis that is additive to just CPR?

It great to say acidosis is better treated in a hospital where more diagnostics can be utilized but until we can get the patient to point B we need to figure out what is best at point A and if there is something more that can be done.

Given the choice, it is better for the critically ill to be slightly acidotic rather than alkalotic. Without lab values to guide therapy directed at correcting acidosis, it is easy to overshoot and end up alkalotic.

If you have reason to believe the arrest was primarily caused by a primary METABOLIC acidosis, than bicarb is certainly approprite. Otherwise, probably best to use CPR.
 
Given the choice, it is better for the critically ill to be slightly acidotic rather than alkalotic. Without lab values to guide therapy directed at correcting acidosis, it is easy to overshoot and end up alkalotic.

If you have reason to believe the arrest was primarily caused by a primary METABOLIC acidosis, than bicarb is certainly approprite. Otherwise, probably best to use CPR.

I have heard this same thing somewhere else too... the preferred acidosis over alkalosis. I just found the article interesting and some of the study data in the article I had not seen before and some of it was intriguing to me and made sense as to why it may be beneficial. I am a rather new Medic so I have not used bicarb ever unlike a few of you that have prob used it by the gallons back in the day (least from what I hear).
 
However, the quantities of lactic acid produced are not the primary contributor to the acidosis. It is the accumulation of CO2, in the form of carbonic acid, that is THE primary contributor to serum acidosis.

Lactic acid gets converted to CO2. So one can expect with lots of lactic acid high levels of CO2 will prevail. When perfusion is restored the lactic acid is converted back to pyruvate which than continues on in the normal process of cellular respiration.

If you want to get specific isn't it really the hydrogen ion concentration that leads to acidotic effects and is what triggers certain physiological changes in the body? Since CO2 breaks down into hydrogen?
 
Then why comment on this?
And without "wishy washy studies", we would still be calling Rampart for our 2 Amps of BiCarb on cardiac arrests. :ph34r:

well not rampart, but Bicarb is a base order for cardiac arrest for me, so is dextrose. i feel that i work in a "progressive" county, the medical director feels that those drugs are of no use in an arrest. hell i dont even check a blood sugar because there is nothing i am going to do for it until i get pulses back.

point of the story is that maby these "wishy washy studies" are actually telling us something, and are definitely telling the guys who went to many more years of school and get paid way better than us how to write our protocols.

blsboy this statement wasn't pointed at you, i just wanted to put a reference to my post above.
 
Actually in the absence of O2 (as the case of cardiac arrest) cellular respiration shifts from aerobic to anaerobic. Fermentation follows glycolysis where lactic acid and ethyl alcohol are produced intracellular...

I am fairly certain that we do not ferment (the enzymes needed are not present), we do undergo anaerobic respiration. they are not the same. glycolisys and a shortened version of the crebs cycle are still present.
 
Yes, you are correct in noting that lactic acid is a product of the anaerobic metabolism that occurs when tissues are not perfused...as in cardiac/respiratory arrest. However, the quantities of lactic acid produced are not the primary contributor to the acidosis. It is the accumulation of CO2, in the form of carbonic acid, that is THE primary contributor to serum acidosis.
By the time that lactic acid would accumulate in pathological levels, the organism/patient has reached end stage organ death.
It's fun and wonderful to see that people are thinking and exploring the basic science behind what we do. Keep in mind what we do is PRE-hospital medicine. Critical lactic acidosis requires dialysis. My service, although progressive, is cheap and won't give me the latest greatest portable dialysis unit.

Not to beat a dead horse but to make one final point. According to the Trauma triad of Death.

Quoting Wiki
In the absence of blood-bound oxygen and nutrients (hypoperfusion), the body’s cells burn glucose for energy (lactic acidosis), which in turn increases the blood’s acidity (metabolic acidosis). Such an increase in acidity can reduce the efficiency of the heart muscles (myocardial performance), further reducing the oxygen delivery and hence triggering a deadly cycle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trauma_triad_of_death

Another source.
http://www.meridianhealth.com/m/pdf/TraumaTriadShock.pdf

Well I will see what else I can dig up.
 
I am fairly certain that we do not ferment (the enzymes needed are not present), we do undergo anaerobic respiration. they are not the same. glycolisys and a shortened version of the crebs cycle are still present.

Well quoting from one of my biology textbooks.

Human cells make ATP by lactic acid fermentation when oxygen is scarce.

From glycolysis, pyruvate is reduced by NADH to form lactate (Ionized form of lactic acid).

C3H3O3 + 2NADH ---> C3H5O3 + 2NAD

"Biology 7ed. Campbell and Reece pp174-175.
 
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Yes, you are correct in noting that lactic acid is a product of the anaerobic metabolism that occurs when tissues are not perfused...as in cardiac/respiratory arrest. However, the quantities of lactic acid produced are not the primary contributor to the acidosis. It is the accumulation of CO2, in the form of carbonic acid, that is THE primary contributor to serum acidosis.
By the time that lactic acid would accumulate in pathological levels, the organism/patient has reached end stage organ death.
It's fun and wonderful to see that people are thinking and exploring the basic science behind what we do. Keep in mind what we do is PRE-hospital medicine. Critical lactic acidosis requires dialysis. My service, although progressive, is cheap and won't give me the latest greatest portable dialysis unit.

Where to begin...

Ok, since it would take no less than a book to explain all of this, and I have no intention of writing one, let me try to point out a few key problems here.

Bicarb is the major buffer system of the serum. RBCs in the serum are subject to acidosis in the form of protein denaturing and enzymatic alteration of normal function.

Irrespective of the effects of end organ lactic acidosis, losing the ability to carry and donate oxygen molecules ends in organ damage.

Because the RBCs do not use TCA as a substrate producing path, they are particularly vulnerable because they are already using lactic acid metabolism.

Brain cells requiring oxygen in high concentration to get substrate primarily from the TCA cycle are dependant on this o2 transport and delivery. For a bit, there is alterantive sources for brain, but it is rather a short time.

Then you have the issue of renal papilae being rather vulnerable to oxygen deprivation. Once they start to denature, slough, and die, there can be a sequele of renal dysfunction (I'd love to explain it, but like I said I am not writing a book)

When the area surrounding the hepatic venous system loses it's meager oxygen supply, it also contributes to hepatic dysfunction in a short time. The conventional wisdom was that since hepatocytes can regenerate this was not a major issue. However, I am hoping to win my Nobel in medicine demonstrating that temporary liver dysfunction impacts the rest of the ability of the total organism to compensate in the periarrest state, when liver products are absent or altered. After all, what good is a heart full of oxygen without fatty acid metabolism? Of course what good is any organ if you have oxygen but no substrate?

Once bicarb and phosphate buffers are overloaded or in effective, it takes the body days to adjust. (providing the kidneys are functioning) In the meantime you have RBC permiability if not lysis. (for a variety of reasons like shape and structural integrity) Once the membrane is permiable, you start to lose adenosine. (which if you need atp, is going to be a really big problem)

Moreover, once you have mitochondrial membrane leakage in any mito. containing cell, irresgardless of the PH level, the caspase cascade is going to finish off the cell. (think of it at a grand level like in megaMoles or gross organs)

and i will not bother to type ot the systemic inflammatory sequele except to mention it also plays a part.

This is why the whole cardiac arrest algorythm will never get survivial beyond its epidemilogical value. It is why all the studies showing the benefit or lack of specific drugs are inherintly flawed. Because you are hoping your subjects pathology falls into your treatment, rather than targeted treatments to specific pathology.

Have you ever seen a study that shows the effects of bicarb on patients in cardiac arrest secondary to DKA? I haven't.

Or epi in hypertensive crisis secondary to pheocrhomocytoma?

Or amiodarone in arrest secondary to hyperkalemia?

But instead they pick things identifiers like V-fib. Which may or may not correlate sometimes. I wonder about the quality of the professionals that pick extraordinarily vague parameters like this for studies.

It is why all of us old gys have anectdotes about seeing bloodletting and cautery save lives or some studies show minor benefit and some show harm. If you read these studies regularly, you will notice the pathology report is never included. (if even performed)

In the publish or perish environment of evidence based medicine, most studies are not worth the paper they are printed on. It is why clinical judgement and proficency along with sound demonstrated basic scientific knowledge is what will be required to save lives.

Anything less is just a trial and error, with saves being accidents rather than definitive care.

While I agree that the ICU in a hospital is more suited to saving lives than the back of a truck on the street, it is important to remember that in coaglative necrosis, the time period is about 4 days. So what happens in the truck on the street that is not apparent or easily demonstratable, directly affects the sequele once the pt. gets to the ICU. The reason survival to discharge is so low, is becase by the time the pt. makes it to the ICU, the irreversible cascades have started and the deal was done 8-20 minutes into the prehospital phase.

I once had the idea we could be more effective by moving this intensive medicine into the earlier stages of care like the field or ED. But there was so much resistance to it from field providers, I gave up.
 
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I would point out that if the hospital isn't using Bicarb doesn't help the severe acidosis before a cardiac arrest, it isn't going to magically save the patient when they are now much sicker and have no pulse. Look at how most of these acidotic conditions are treated in the hospital. DKA gets fluid and insulin, sepsis gets antibiotics and fluids, toxic alcohols get ETOH or fomepazole etc. One of the only things that gets Bicarb is aspirin OD or TCA OD (the second is now pretty rare.) But in ASA the patient is alkalotic from the respiratory alk even though they also have a metabolic acidosis.

So even though it would make sense to correct the acidosis in cardiac arrest, improving perfusion and ventilation is going to have a much bigger effect on pH than a few amps of Bicarb.

As to getting more aggressive with prehospital treatment, I'm getting discouraged. There are some truly excellent providers out there, but most people I've seen seem to still be working on the "basics" of critical care like intubation, uninterupted compressions, ECG reading etc. And unless it was very protocol driven I'm not sure the average medic in the US is ready for all those spicy things like central lines and antibiotics. I wish they were. I think it is easy as a medical student or doctor who does EMS to say "we should be able to do these things in the field." But there has to be a line where you say that some things should be done by those with high levels of training.
 
As to getting more aggressive with prehospital treatment, I'm getting discouraged. There are some truly excellent providers out there, but most people I've seen seem to still be working on the "basics" of critical care like intubation, uninterupted compressions, ECG reading etc. And unless it was very protocol driven I'm not sure the average medic in the US is ready for all those spicy things like central lines and antibiotics.

I agree with what you are saying, but I am of the mind that eliminating the poor performers would be a giant step in the right direction. I think the best way to do that is by making EMS a minimum of a 4 year degree. But since obviously that is not going to happen in the US, we might as well just make the current providers feel better by giving them some toys to abuse the corpses with and every now and again get a save inspite of the interventions.

I wish they were. I think it is easy as a medical student or doctor who does EMS to say "we should be able to do these things in the field." But there has to be a line where you say that some things should be done by those with high levels of training.

I think that goes hand in hand. I see the European doctors in the field and it is truly inspiring to watch. But since even most physicians involved in US EMS have no desire to spend anymore time on EMS than they absolutely have to, I expect the US to fall further and further behind in relation to EMS effectiveness, value, or even usefulness.

You are right, there is a line, it has already been drawn, and it should be performed by more capable providers. The trouble in the US is there simply isn't any appreciable quantity of more capable prehospital providers.

But the crap passing for published studies in regards to EMS treatments isn't doing much to further the field either. Have to get some garbage with a name on it for residency application right?
 
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