Side-Stream CO2 Monitoring

spidermedic

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Is anyone out there routinely using side stream CO2?

I ask as we're having a little debate within my service. There are folks that think it's the end all, be all and then there are the folks--well, mainly me--who don't see it changing care or outcomes.

:excl:Note that I'm talking spontaneous breathing patients here, not intubated ones.:excl:

Thoughts?
 
Mainline is better, the accuracy is less with the side stream. Both are valuable tools though, but alas, no the treatment will not change. It is nice to see a trend associated with a ETCO2 waveform though...............
 
I personally use the EtCo2 as another tool in confirming my diagnosis, similar to the ECG and SpO2, after my assessment and preliminary dx.

I think it is a great adjunct tool. I do use it as a tool for such as differential in CHF vs. COPD (Fluid vs. Obstructive) with those that have history of both or assist in demonstrating that they might have both occurring. Personally, I do not believe in using Albuterol in CHF as it might increase myocardial damage, and increasing tachycardia if not needed.

I as well like monitoring non-intubated patients that represent obstruction such as asthmatic and observing Co2 entrapment and effectiveness of my therapy. As well, concurring my diagnosis of DKA along with hyperglycemia and those that present off the wall electrolyte imbalance such as dialysis patients.

Of course, I no longer have intubated patients without an EtCo2 wave form or have an explanation of why I do not. Definitely a quick indicator of misplaced tube during a hectic code or after movement, and a quick indicator of perfusion during the process of codes.

R/r 911
 
If you need a quantifier/qualifer for a non-intubated patient, use an asthma or dyspnea score. If the patient can talk, count the number of words they can speak clearly. Do something that involves actually assessing the patient rather than relying on a tool that is dependent on secretions, ventilatory rate, length of tubing and V/Q mismatching.

If you do not know what the baseline CO2 is, then what is normal? Disease processes will affect the number causing it to be lower thus giving you a false sense of security. You will not know the PaCO2 - PetCO2 gradient in the field. Also, a few people including infants and children have normally elevated CO2 levels. Are you going to treat them differently if they are able to speak in complete sentences and/or have a relatively low score on an asthma or dyspnea assessment scale?

We used to do ABGs in the ED prior to every intubation "for documentation of need". We stopped that and now just document our physical assessments. Reason: when patients are in impending respiratory failure, they call upon every bit of reserve strength they have to survive. Thus, with increased ventilatory effort, the ABGs would look great right before failure. Thus, you ETCO2 would also look great. But, by looking at the numbers on a machine you may miss a clinical sign and your patient decompensates very rapidly before the machine numbers have a chance to rise.

For intubated patients, ETCO2 can be useful for wave form confirmation of the tube placeement. The various wave patterns can also give you some indication of what is clinically significant with the patient. However, without knowledge of the PaCO2 - PetCO2 gradient, the numbers can be deceiving. With some disease processses, the PetCO2 may not correlate at all with the PaCO2.

You can review capnography at this website and become a more informed clinician who is then able to decide if it will work for your service.

http://elearning.respironics.com/index_f.asp

There have been many positive articles written about capnography in the EMS field but few stress the clinical basics or provide scientific data of correlation. Most of the articles are about what the technology is supposed to do but not always what it does. Also, most of the EMS articles only discuss a limited amount of disease processes. There are many others that can be covered or may not have been diagnosed yet. Text book and reality can differ in various clinical situations. This is very similar to the material for the pulse ox.

For more scientific correlation studies, search at www.medscape.com or any of the medical search engines.

The big question to ask, are you going to change your field treatment based on a number on a sidestream ETCO2 machine or the patient's clinical status? The other question is, how long are you going to be on transport with the patient? Will it actually be long enough to establish a trend in capnography? Again, are you going to watch the monitor or the patient?

EDIT:
And yes in the hands of an experienced and educated clinician with many titles such as Rid who is very familiar with differential diagnosis, it can be useful. However, without a baseline, trend and clinical correlation, the side stream has too many factors which must be taken into consideration that can skew the number.
 
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I agree Vent too many are attempting to treat the numbers or the monitoring devices or tools without good assessment and history taking. H & P is essential in any medical diagnosis, without it; one is lost and only guessing of what they have or are treating in the dark.

Monitoring devices be it EKG, SpO2, EtCo2, CO or what ever are just additional aids and tools to help confirm or assist in our preliminary diagnosis. They are not the "end all"...

If one has a patient that appears ill and the vital signs are normal, do we totally ignore them? Hopefully not and we will dig harder into the assessment and history as well as using any other aids or devices that might be relevant in assisting our findings as the cause of the problem.

Do I treat all V-tachs, shortness of breath, chest pains alike? No, again it will be based upon the history and patient assessment, then maybe along with the aid of the devices such as ones discussed.

I rarely use SpO2 monitors except for documentation. There are those that do surprise me that they are compensating so well, but does it alter my treatment if one has a saturation of 92% and is symptomatic or one that has a saturation of 88% and presents the opposite finding? Hopefully, I would already would know the answer before applying the devices, and it would correlate with my intended treatment regime. Usually, I use such devices to verify my hypothesis and even if they do not demonstrate what I had thought I still treat accordingly to my patient not my machine.

Yes, there are few times that one be surprised by the machines finding and have to have a different mind set.. (i.e. SVT with a perfusion of 60) but those should be rare circumstances.

Again, treat your patient not the devices.. your assessment skill should reflect on what the aids presents to you as well...

R/r 911
 
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I'm with Rid and Vent here. I fly with some pretty advanced equipment. Love them. They are great; especially when you know when they are telling you the truth or when they are straight up lying to you. Equipment can lie.


The ground service I work part time for has only 3 pieces of technology for you: A pulse ox, glucometer, and a LP10. That's it. They do this while running 1000 calls a month with 4 trucks. You can get a bit busy. I like them because you have to think with little resources. You have to physically touch your pt.


In my honest opinion, there is no such thing as a bigger and better mouse trap.
 
I do not want to come off as anti-technology. In fact, quite the opposite, I LOVE my technology. That is why my 2nd career is as a Respiratory Therapist. I have easily a million dollars worth of technology to use in the ICU and sometimes on just one patient. And, that is why I advise anyone to use caution when using technology. Technology can lead you down the wrong path if you are only looking at one number and "searching for a diagnosis from that number".

There are so many variables when using Pulse Ox and ETCO2 that can give you a false sense of security thus you may under treat. In the ICU we only take each number for worth if we can correlate it with other data along with the clinical status of the patient.

An SpO2 of 100% may look great but the patient may have a Hb of 8 g/dl or less which makes for poor O2 carrying capacity. (norm Hb 12 - 16 g/dl) And yes, this patient may complain of shortness of breath. Are you going to tell them "you can't be short of breath, your SpO2 is 100%"?

If a patient is septic, SaO2 and SpO2 are monitored but are not of as much value as the SvO2. Sepsis protocols run on SvO2 and MAP (Mean Art. Pressure). FiO2 and meds to increase the MAP will be utilized to maintain the SvO2.

TBI patients will also have their SvO2 monitored. That is how we discovered the days of hyperventilating to a PaCO2 in the 20s was not beneficial for the gray matter.

I mentioned in a earlier post about how pts will work hard to maintain homeostasis and survive...until they fail. That is why even ABGs are of little value in many pre-intubation cases.

When people think of COPD, they right away think of a CO2 retaining emphysema pt. Actually only 5% of all COPD patients are CO2 retainers. COPD is a very broad term.

Also even the emphysema pt can have restrictive components. Asthma; is it always obstructive or can it be restrictive? Obesity? Auto-immune lung diseases are yet another category which defy most ventilation principles. Lung cancer patients are also difficult to monitor and guess what their PaCO2 or PetCO2 will be.

How about the marathon runner that gets chest pain during a run? What do you think the normal PetCO2 would be on a pt that can have a large VO2 max.?

Yes, it may be possible to trust ETCO2 to correlate with the PaCO2 if the patient has no parenchymal lung disease and is just the average 30y/o non-smoking person. But then, would they need a paramedic with a PetCO2 monitor?

I usually play games with new physician interns. I have them bet on ABGs based on pt history. Sometimes I'll even let them look at CXRs. I don't let them look at other lab values though. They, too, will stereotype pts into what should be a typical ABG for a 100 pk/yr smoker. I may also throw in a pt with a non smoking hx but has Alpha 1 Antitrypsin Deficiency. We can also get into mixed diseases; Asbestosis/Emphysema, Sarcoidosis/Asthma etc. And then you have the various PNAs. Each one may behave differently. Necrotizing Staph PNA and PCP will give you two very different presentations and both will be a difficult ventilator management. The ETCO2 on each may be all over the map.

Now you put all this with clinical pictures that include hypovolemia, age, decreased cardiac output due to long term disease, vasopressors etc and your ETCO2 is anybodys guess.

Of course, you will get patients that truly display disease processes but have not been diagnosed.

Good waveforms may give you some indication of what you are dealing with but usually on a sidestream monitor there is artifact.

In most cases, if it is a long transport, all you can do is monitor a trend.

I can give you one mishap example where a well meaning CCT, but not well versed in ETCO2, thought the the patient was being over ventilated when they saw a low ETCO2. Thus, in transport they decreased the rate from 24 to 12 in attempt to get the ETCO2 to "normal". That pt did not arrive in good shape.

RRTs, RNs and MDs that work in hospitals are bombarded with sales pitches on drugs and technology almost every week. Plus, we go to conferences that have over 300 vendors. Everybody has a sales pitch. When someone thinks the BS factor is getting high, they'll ask, "where is the Cappuccino spout"? That usually lets the salesperson know he/she has a tough informed audience. Yes, even in the hospital we are sometimes suckered into buying junk either in function or use.

I've also seen some of the stuff that EMS has been sold through the years. How many different splints have been presented to the market throughout the years? And, what about all the CPAP devices that are on the market now? I recently got a Paramedic a little upset who had suggested the hospital buy the same little "mask/valve" device his agency was using. Give up RTs' devices that can cruise at 240 liters/minute? That's like comparing YUGO and Porsche.

One more good article with good reference studies sited:

http://www.aacn.org/pdfLibra.NSF/Files/Frakes/$file/Frakes.pages.pdf
 
Thanks all. You're all preaching pretty much what I'm saying with my service, just thought I'd reach out to see if I was missing something.

A lot of money for something that isn't going to make a difference in outcome.
 
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