People like clean teeth

Guardian said:
I just read this on yahoo--

"The Labor Department reports that while the median earnings are in the high $60k range, the top-end hygienists found themselves in the $90k range last year."

http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-articles-the_quickest_route_to_a_six_figure_job-518



Can someone remind me again why these people make so much money. They clean teeth!
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Because bad teeth hurt for a long time and the only one who hurts from dying isn't around to complain about it?
 
I think hygienists have a 4 year degree. A BS I think. Sometimes it's not what you do, it's what you have to do to get there.

Something about the signaling theory of wage determination is nagging at the back of my mind from econ class...
 
This is a good article and a chance to compare another healthcare profession that few even consider. Feel free to comment if there are any similarities to the EMS education and certification process.

http://www.dentalhygienists.com/

Education:

The Commission on Dental Accreditation has, as of yet, accredited 266 dental hygienist programs. Most community college-based dental hygiene programs (at a specialized dental hygienist college) offer students the two year associate's dental hygienist degree upon completion of their courses.

University-based dental hygienist programs funnel students toward a dental hygienist certificate, a bachelor's degree or master's degree, the latter generally obtained upon completing an additional two years of dental hygienist courses or dental hygienist classes at focused hygienist schools.

To become a registered dental hygienist who practices in a private dental office, a minimum of an associate's degree or dental hygienist certificate is mandatory. A bachelor's or master's degree (obtained through advanced dental hygienist school/extensive dental hygienist education) is usually obligatory for research, teaching or clinical practice in a public or school health program.
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Prerequisites:

For embarking on advanced dental hygienist education, as for any future dental hygienist job, high school courses such as health, biology, psychology, chemistry, mathematics and speech are extremely useful.
Approximately half of the existing dental hygienists programs prefer applicants to have completed at least one year of college, sometimes two, before entering into the path toward a dental hygienist degree.

Once a student has enrolled in a dental hygienist program, his or her dental hygienist degree requirements include laboratory, clinical and classroom instruction in subjects such as anatomy, physiology, chemistry, microbiology, pharmacology, nutrition, radiography, histology (tissue structure science), periodontology (gum disease science), pathology, dental materials, clinical dental hygiene, and social and behavioral sciences.
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Licensure:


A registered dental hygienist is required to be licensed by the state in which he or she practices. To be eligible for a dental hygienist license in nearly all US states, a candidate must have fulfilled all dental hygienist requirements and have graduated from an accredited dental hygiene school. The candidate must also have passed both a written and clinical examination to receive a dental hygienist certificate.

The written examination, acknowledged by all states and the District of Columbia, is administered by the American Dental Association's Joint Commission on National Dental Examinations.
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clean teeth are a good thing I think.
 
Any patient on a ventilator in most hospitals gets their teeth cleaned and mouth scrubbed every 2 hours per a Ventilator Associated PNA protocol. A clean mouth prevents potential for other infections.
 
I think infections are bad. :rolleyes:

yet EMS get low pay. Get more of an education and pay goes up.
 
Education is an issue, but not the only issue. There are many factors that keep our pay low that have nothing to do with our level of education. The average licensed dental hygienist with an associate degree makes a lot more than the average licensed paramedic with a degree.

The nature of the dental hygienist's working environment and the nature of their work naturally allows more autonomy. You can clean a normal person's teeth and then bill them for it. We deal with a lot of people who are not normal and can't be billed. Right or wrong, there is also an altruistic public necessity component to our job that isn’t as prevalent in the dental profession. It's strange how this notion of autonomy changes depending on the setting and patients. Autonomy is really just a state of mind and/or environment, not an easily identifiable, tangible or legal concept. If an alien were comparing paramedics to dental hygienists, the alien would conclude the paramedic is more autonomous. Yet, in a purely business sense, the dental hygienist is much more autonomous because they can use the natural advantages afforded to them by their working environment and clientele.

Nevertheless, it still bothers me that a person who cleans teeth with a little electric toothbrush makes three times what I make. But in large part, could it just be the nature of the beast?
 
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Guardian said:
Education is an issue, but not the only issue. There are many factors that keep our pay low that have nothing to do with our level of education. The average licensed dental hygienist with an associate degree makes a lot more than the average licensed paramedic with a degree.
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The profession is only as strong or is judged by its weakest link. Dental Hygienists have set minimum standards and can still advance from there for more opportunities.

Even though some paramedics have degrees, there is no mandate (Oregon being the exception) for this as a requirement for entry. Thus, you may still be judged the same as the 3 month wonders.

It is upsetting but who is too blame? Read the numerous threads where members of this profession consider education a waste of time. Look at the number of EMT-Bs that opt to not advance to the Paramedic level even with it being just 1000 hours or less of extra training and in most cases none of that college stuff has to be done. I find it appalling that people who do have the responsibility of being a Paramedic or EMT-B don't take more interest in becoming better educated and held to higher standards for the best interest of their patients.

Which profession put some thought into their standards which is easily accepted by the industry, consumers and insurances?

Would patients also not be shocked to find out that their Dental Hygienist has much more education than a Paramedic?

It bothers me that someone can do what Paramedics do with just 3 months of training from an unaccredited medic mill.
 
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I agree with everything vent wrote. But looking at ems or emergency medicine from a business standpoint-- it's a bad business. Heck, generalized medicine is bad business. Specialists don't want to work for general hospitals anymore where they have to come in at 3am and deal with the riffraff. Furthermore, the number of general practitioners is dwindling. After all, who in their right mind would get all the way through medical school only to throw all that profit potential away on generalized care? So, other than education, what role (if any) does the "nature" of our job play in our low pay? Does anyone know of an urban hospital that has a realistically profitable ED? I would argue that if the rest of the hospital went away, the EDs would bankrupt very quickly. How do we change the business model? Should we change the business model? If you want to complain about low pay, you're going to have to address these problems sooner or later.
 
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VentMedic said:
Which profession put some thought into their standards which is easily accepted by the industry, consumers and insurances?
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Was it brilliant thought or dumb luck due to the fact that it's a totally different and much easier type of business?
 
This is accomplished the same way every professional in that hospital has dealt with low wages. They support their professional organizations across the country to establish standards and then present them to legislators who hold the purse strings for reimbursement.

If your profession is continued to be viewed as a "tech"
AND you can not even explain what your profession is across the board with the 50+ different certifications AND even the word Paramedic is not used in Evey state AND can not even guarantee education from an accredited school...what do you expect?

Respiratory Therapists have two more Bills waiting to be passed that will open up more reimbursement and employment opportunities for them. PTs, OTs and SLTs are right there also marketing their advanced education and looking to expand into other areas. Yes, these professions do operate by a business model and have accepted it. They didn't just sit around waiting to the public to pat them on the back and give them a blank check. They put their market strategy to work through established standards, education and just a couple of nationally recognized credentials so the legislators knew exactly who they were even if they don't all practice the same in different areas.

PAs and NPs also have their agendas that are being presented.

The Hospitalist concept has improved some working situations for physicians.

Yes, there are hospitals that are going under and closing. The success of a hospital has alot to do with the skill of the administration in making sure all avenues for reimbursement have been explored.

And EMS has done what? I've learned of 3 more "certs" being established in some states in the past week from reading the forums. The fragmentation of skills, education, certification, licensure, accreditation and just over all attitude within the profession has put it to the bottom of pile when compared to other professions, healthcare or not, regardless of how "needed" the service is.

Guardian said:
Was it brilliant thought or dumb luck due to the fact that it's a totally different and much easier type of business?
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How do you explain it for ALL of the other licensed healthcare professions? They watched and learned how other professions advanced and took note of what the insurance providers, public and private, wanted.

EMS providers are so quick to judge, criticize or bash any profession that they don't believe is as worthy as them. They should be taking notes from that profession.

Considering that almost every FD in Florida and other states make their FFs go through a Paramedic course and most do pass the exam, one might argue the "easier" part at least for the investment in education. Most will be "patch" Fire Medics on an ALS engine with only 5 - 10 minutes spent with a patient and maybe not even that long if there are 3 other Fire Medics on that engine.

Personally, I would not want to specialize working in someone's mouth all day and everyday. My hat is off to Dental Hygienists.
 
Many hygenists are "freelancers" in our area.

No single private practice has enough business or space to have their own full-time hygenists, so they work a few days a week at one office, a few at another. They get a higher pay rate but have to self insure for health and dental, no retirement or defered comp. etc. Virtually all the hygenists around here are female and under forty.
 
mycrofft said:
No single private practice has enough business or space to have their own full-time hygenists, so they work a few days a week at one office, a few at another. They get a higher pay rate but have to self insure for health and dental, no retirement or defered comp. etc. Virtually all the hygenists around here are female and under forty.
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That's not always true in Florida. My dentist has 3 FT Dental Hygienists. Many patients only need their teeth cleaned and not an appointment with the Dentist. My insurance pays for 2 cleanings as do other plans. Since there are much larger Dental Clinics, there are more options for benefits.

I also have a dentist in the SF Bay area that has 2 FT Dental Hygienists and have worked with him for at least 10 years.

However, I am sure there are many Dental Hygienists that practice as you describe.

Many Massage Therapists, if they don't work for hospitals or have their own practice, also rent space in Chiropractors' offices. Massage Therapy is another profession that has learned to market itself through education, national certification, licensure and standards to get a good reimbursement from insurances. In many states, it takes more "hours of training" to be a Massage Therapist than it does to be Paramedic. They also have an Associates degree through the community colleges complete with all the science and math prerequisites that SHOULD be standard in any Paramedic program.
 
Hundreds of thousands of kids want to be EMT's. How many want to be a hygenist?

Look at MD's in Russia. They are paid a little more than teachers but not much more, and teachers make very little. Same in Cuba. Marx was wrong, no intrinsic value, just what the market will pay.

Hereabout also many dental practices are starting to get into "Diamond Age Systems" and other make more money schemes. A few are doing A LOT of hygiene, maxing out people's insurance very quickly, and also selling dietary supps, laser tx's (not usually covered by insurance despite Loma Linda Univesity "confidential study"), etc.
 
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