Sandog
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I am with you on this one.
Moral/Ethical Limits of Scene Safety
- Thread starter steveshurtleff
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I am with you on this one.
Sandog
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For some, there can come a time in their life where they must grapple with a life altering choice. This is the place where gut checks occur, a test of your humanity takes place, the moment in time where a no-name private earns the medal of honor.
The decision you make can alter all that you are; It can haunt you, kill you, or make you reach a self discovery.
In this discussion, I am reminded of a true story and I would like to share this story. Some time ago there was this horrible wildland fire. Fire crews were being overran and forced to retreat. During the retreat a female fire fighter saw two stranded hikers about to meet their maker. She took the two hikers and moved them to a small clearance and she deployed her fire shelter along with the two hikers. What you need to understand is that a fire shelter is like a aluminum bag designed for one person to protect from heat. She laid on top of the hikers, deployed the shelter as the fire flared up and the O2 in the shelter must of been really thin. I think they endured an hour of intense heat, smoke, and lack of O2.
Both hikers lived, the female fire fighter suffered major burns on her back, but survived. She could have just looked the other way and ignore the hikers, but she did not, she put the safety of others above her own.
I don't know about you, but stories like this inspire me.
The decision you make can alter all that you are; It can haunt you, kill you, or make you reach a self discovery.
In this discussion, I am reminded of a true story and I would like to share this story. Some time ago there was this horrible wildland fire. Fire crews were being overran and forced to retreat. During the retreat a female fire fighter saw two stranded hikers about to meet their maker. She took the two hikers and moved them to a small clearance and she deployed her fire shelter along with the two hikers. What you need to understand is that a fire shelter is like a aluminum bag designed for one person to protect from heat. She laid on top of the hikers, deployed the shelter as the fire flared up and the O2 in the shelter must of been really thin. I think they endured an hour of intense heat, smoke, and lack of O2.
Both hikers lived, the female fire fighter suffered major burns on her back, but survived. She could have just looked the other way and ignore the hikers, but she did not, she put the safety of others above her own.
I don't know about you, but stories like this inspire me.
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It's not all that ridiculous.
In many societies around the globe, the child is the most replacable part of society.
In some cultures it is even the male who is considered the most important part of society as they strictly follow the tenents that only a male can work outside of the home.
When they have to choose who goes to the doctor or eats first it is always the male as only such can provide for the rest.
Some would argue this is far removed from modern western society, but is it?
In some modern countries the maternity benefits for women are so desirable that companies find "other" reasons not to hire women in order not to lose the labor force.
Examples even exist in America where parents get credit under their children's names which the parents default on. Which basically ruins the childs credit for the gains of the adult.
Consider the roles of the parents in multichild families or where the father is the primary provider and the mother the primary care giver. Should either of the parents not be able to fulfil such roles, the whole family structure were to break down. However the loss of a child still preserves social order.
Interestingly enough, the value of children as lesser is also addressed in the guidlines for medical care in the event of a major disaster.
As food for thought, the loss of both parents will also equate to the loss of a child in many instances.
Sandog
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The children propagate the species and ensure our continued existence, I think Darwin had a point...
Combat_Medic
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Scene safety is a little different for me. Hence why they issue me an IOTV (body armor), M4 carbine, and a M9 pistol.
Sandog
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Combat_Medic
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Just thinking now. Kinda messed up. You shot my buddy, then I shot you. Now I have to treat you and my buddy.
Sandog
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Of course you know, the guy that shot your buddy was doing what he was told, just as you would if you shot the enemy... After all, when all is said and done, we are all humans.
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Combat_Medic
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I think we are about to open up a can of worms. I just hate the idea of having to treat someone from wounds I inflicted.
Only if they survive long enogh to reproduce.
It must be tough to have to switch gears so quickly, be safe out there.
18G
Paramedic
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First and foremost my goal is to come back home to my kids at the end of my shift. They are in the forefront of my mind and weigh in with every decision I make regarding putting myself at increased risk while at work.
With that said, there is an inherent risk with the job we have all chosen to do. At some point we may be faced with a situation where our actions immediately determine if someone lives, dies, suffers, or ends up with life long disabilities. And as a primary principle our safety always comes first. But "safety first" is relative to our positions, training, and experience. What I cold do relatively safely with a fire background, perhaps my partner could not.
The decision to act needs to be a personal one in the context of the OP's scenario. That is it needs to be based on that EMS providers experience and cross-training. If I pull up in the Medic unit first on-scene of a structure fire and have a person hanging out a second story window I may or may not attempt a rescue depending on what factors are involved. But I can't say that I wouldn't attempt to make entry and save that person's life. If it were my girlfriend, son, or daughter hanging out that window I be damned if I want someone saying, "well scene safety, I can't even try to save their life, too bad, so sad".... um... no.
As Vene has said, it's not as easy as class where we can call "scene safety" and choose to do nothing all the time. If you feel you can "safely" carry out a rescue and have been trained for it and feel you will be risking a lot to save a lot, than that's your call and no one else should fault you for what ever decision you make.
With that said, there is an inherent risk with the job we have all chosen to do. At some point we may be faced with a situation where our actions immediately determine if someone lives, dies, suffers, or ends up with life long disabilities. And as a primary principle our safety always comes first. But "safety first" is relative to our positions, training, and experience. What I cold do relatively safely with a fire background, perhaps my partner could not.
The decision to act needs to be a personal one in the context of the OP's scenario. That is it needs to be based on that EMS providers experience and cross-training. If I pull up in the Medic unit first on-scene of a structure fire and have a person hanging out a second story window I may or may not attempt a rescue depending on what factors are involved. But I can't say that I wouldn't attempt to make entry and save that person's life. If it were my girlfriend, son, or daughter hanging out that window I be damned if I want someone saying, "well scene safety, I can't even try to save their life, too bad, so sad".... um... no.
As Vene has said, it's not as easy as class where we can call "scene safety" and choose to do nothing all the time. If you feel you can "safely" carry out a rescue and have been trained for it and feel you will be risking a lot to save a lot, than that's your call and no one else should fault you for what ever decision you make.
18G
Paramedic
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Wow is about all I can say to that statement.
In my opinion, a child is vulnerable and depends on us for their existence and they deserve every chance at life. An elderly adult has already lived their life and experienced prob most of what life has to offer. A child hasn't. And that in no way is to say one life is more important than the next.
And you couldn't be more wrong. A child offers more to society than you can even begin to realize. Have a child of your own and you will understand.
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I think you guys are really arguing 2 seperate things.
The emotional side of what a child represents is definately not the biological aspect of it.
In terms of sociological contribution, in order for a child to contribute anything in the future, it requires an intact society, basic needs of life provided, and opportunity.
Without such things a child is actually a burdon to survival and to society. So much so even human females stop ovulating because of environmental stress.
An adult, at least in theory can fend for itself to meet basic needs. It can also reproduce and provide basic needs for offspring.
Arguing emotional vs biological is pointless. Biological always wins in the long run.
cruiseforever
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If I shoot at something. I shoot to kill. If you are shooting to wound. Why are you shooting?
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Let's keep this on the topic of whether or not to enter an unsafe scene and not turn it into a discussion on how to shoot. If you have a specific question for a user please use the PM feature.
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And with worldwide population decline and the looming threat of human extinction, that's a very important point.
If Police have advised Ambulance the scene is unsafe or Ambulance Communications feels the Police are required the crew will wait for them.
Other than that we generally approach all scenes that we feel are safe, as we approach the crew are going to be looking for hazards, thinking about leaving gates unlocked or something like that.
We are lucky here we do not have to worry a lot about guns or gangs or things like that - yes, they are a fact of the environment and assaults and abuse against Ambulance Officers is getting worse.
If Brown feels that Brown can safely approach and treat or extricate a patient without additional resources eg Police, Fire service, SERT (CBRN) and Brown's partner (Black) agrees .... then in we go
Other than that we generally approach all scenes that we feel are safe, as we approach the crew are going to be looking for hazards, thinking about leaving gates unlocked or something like that.
We are lucky here we do not have to worry a lot about guns or gangs or things like that - yes, they are a fact of the environment and assaults and abuse against Ambulance Officers is getting worse.
If Brown feels that Brown can safely approach and treat or extricate a patient without additional resources eg Police, Fire service, SERT (CBRN) and Brown's partner (Black) agrees .... then in we go
Sasha
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Actually only "children" who are of reproductive maturity, which aren't really children.
A 3 or 4 year old? Contributes nothing.