Soortproef
Forum Ride Along
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Is it ethical to "cruise" the town looking for intoxicated students, stop to evaluate, and then trasnport to the local hospital?? In the same vein, is it legal... or is it "legal" kidnapping..
Looking for potential calls...
- Thread starter Soortproef
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RescueShirts.com
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It's one thing to be called for a "man down"... it ends up being a drunk... and now you have an obligation to transport because you can't "rule out" that he is "only drunk" in the field.
Cruising the town looking drunks is something else entirely.
Since you are not a cop... you can't really get him for "drunk in public"... and since you were not called to a "call"... all you are really doing is harrassing that individual.
If the person is a threat to himself... then you should get law enforcement involved.
Not sure "why" you would want to do this...
Cruising the town looking drunks is something else entirely.
Since you are not a cop... you can't really get him for "drunk in public"... and since you were not called to a "call"... all you are really doing is harrassing that individual.
If the person is a threat to himself... then you should get law enforcement involved.
Not sure "why" you would want to do this...
Soortproef
Forum Ride Along
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Thanks... I have two "over-zealous" EMTs on a crew who, for lack of anything better to do, are picking up drunks on a Saturday night... While I do not think it is illegal, it certainly is un-necessary... Due to prior warnings to one of them for "whacking" calls and a subsequent grievance filed against me for being "too mean", I need to be carefull on how this issue is handled...
firetender
Community Leader Emeritus
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How could that be anything other than kidnapping?
("You" means whomever. If it's you, get help!)
You are not dispatched or called to a scene of an accident or emergency.
You are not requested by a person in the vicinity of your ambulance to evaluate anyone who has experienced some sort of trauma. You are, in your words "cruisin'" -- not to take in the sites, but to target a human being for your own purposes. That's called "stalking."
You do not have the legal authority to remove anyone from where they are if they don't want to be moved. As a medic, the reality is you can usually get away with it, as long as you were called there and there's enough evidence to warrant that that movement would in some way prevent further damage. Playing those odds are quite a bit different than randomly choosing a citizen to harass.
In many states if you touch someone against his or her will (like to "help" them into the ambulance under false pretenses) that's called "battery."
Even if you're doing a Citizen's Arrest, it's okay to "hold" someone suspected of doing a crime until an Officer of the law shows up and then makes the decision what to do. Even at that, it can come down on you if you make a wrong call.
A call being initiated by anyone in EMS out of boredom is no different than a Volly Firefighter torching an illegally parked car.
If this is on the level, this is serious stupid, spelled l-i-a-b-i-l-i-t-y, but also on the practical level of inviting a broken nose.
And as for asking is this ethical? I don't think it's quite a matter of ethics if you were to tie up your own ambulance with a manufactured call while someone died needing your help. That sounds more like homicide.
In my humble opinion, I think something is seriously out of whack here and needs tending to. I hope you see that you are faced with having to make a choice between silence -- and letting illegal activity continue -- or speaking out against what amounts to dangerous activity in your midst.
I put it to the rest of the forum: Should this kind of activity continue?
("You" means whomever. If it's you, get help!)
You are not dispatched or called to a scene of an accident or emergency.
You are not requested by a person in the vicinity of your ambulance to evaluate anyone who has experienced some sort of trauma. You are, in your words "cruisin'" -- not to take in the sites, but to target a human being for your own purposes. That's called "stalking."
You do not have the legal authority to remove anyone from where they are if they don't want to be moved. As a medic, the reality is you can usually get away with it, as long as you were called there and there's enough evidence to warrant that that movement would in some way prevent further damage. Playing those odds are quite a bit different than randomly choosing a citizen to harass.
In many states if you touch someone against his or her will (like to "help" them into the ambulance under false pretenses) that's called "battery."
Even if you're doing a Citizen's Arrest, it's okay to "hold" someone suspected of doing a crime until an Officer of the law shows up and then makes the decision what to do. Even at that, it can come down on you if you make a wrong call.
A call being initiated by anyone in EMS out of boredom is no different than a Volly Firefighter torching an illegally parked car.
If this is on the level, this is serious stupid, spelled l-i-a-b-i-l-i-t-y, but also on the practical level of inviting a broken nose.
And as for asking is this ethical? I don't think it's quite a matter of ethics if you were to tie up your own ambulance with a manufactured call while someone died needing your help. That sounds more like homicide.
In my humble opinion, I think something is seriously out of whack here and needs tending to. I hope you see that you are faced with having to make a choice between silence -- and letting illegal activity continue -- or speaking out against what amounts to dangerous activity in your midst.
I put it to the rest of the forum: Should this kind of activity continue?
sandboxmedic
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cruisin for drunks post
I agree, this is such a bad idea. Sounds like you have a couple newbies looking for something to do.Volly system or not, its a bad idea. Tying up your unit for extraneous BS while someone who is really sick or dying might be needing you in the next few minutes is UN-SAT. In your corner, if you know of a few instances, or have documented several, see if you can pull up records of when they were involved in this, and what calls were missed. If you can support your claims and go through appropriate chain of command, I can't imagine youd have any problems. As "FireTender" put it, that is a HUGE liability, and ANY lawyer would love case that like a fat kid loves cake.
I agree, this is such a bad idea. Sounds like you have a couple newbies looking for something to do.Volly system or not, its a bad idea. Tying up your unit for extraneous BS while someone who is really sick or dying might be needing you in the next few minutes is UN-SAT. In your corner, if you know of a few instances, or have documented several, see if you can pull up records of when they were involved in this, and what calls were missed. If you can support your claims and go through appropriate chain of command, I can't imagine youd have any problems. As "FireTender" put it, that is a HUGE liability, and ANY lawyer would love case that like a fat kid loves cake.
Airwaygoddess
Forum Deputy Chief
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Very bad idea, this will open up such a can of legal issues just to name a few.......
Okay, so questions from someone new to the business. If, in the process of you being out of your station (eating, whatever...), you see an MVA, or are approached by a bystander saying "this guy doesn't look right, can you take a look?", can you stop and help-- can you even take a look?
What is the difference if you witness something, then take out your cell phone and call 911, then are dispatched there 30 seconds later...?
What is the difference if you witness something, then take out your cell phone and call 911, then are dispatched there 30 seconds later...?
sandboxmedic
Forum Crew Member
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Yes, if you happen to roll up on an MVA, or get approached by a citizen with a gramma/child/ whoever, for a concern you are good. You are a public service, you have a "duty to act" and are well within your guidelines. Your uniform identifies you as "Help",.....to the community.
However, being bored on the box, rolling around, seeing someone drunk walking down the street, doesnt give you cause to pull over-question them and transport. Although it truly is situation dependant,......fortunately, in my old agency there was a Detox unit ran by the police. It was a busy, busy resort town...where we saw many intoxicated people on a weekend night. If i saw someone laid out on the sidewalk im gonna stop and check them, if i see someone staggering(drunk) into traffic, (personal action here, not for everyone)
i'll use the unit to block traffic and reel them back in,notifiying the police. Because if you dont, you'll be back in 5 minutes for a bloody mess.And it sucks when hindsight is 20/20, and " i could have saved him if i just stopped him from wandering into the intersection" plays on your conscience.
Basically, use your judgement, but "trollling" for people who may be intoxicated but mentating fairly well, walking with that "tequila swagger" doesnt mean they need a transport. If its "that" time of the morning, and your seeing a lot of people presenting as previously stated, realize youve entered the witching hour, and someone could REALLY need you in the next few hours/minutes. Wasting time on a senseless transport taking your unit, you as an asset, off the street is unacceptable.--peace
However, being bored on the box, rolling around, seeing someone drunk walking down the street, doesnt give you cause to pull over-question them and transport. Although it truly is situation dependant,......fortunately, in my old agency there was a Detox unit ran by the police. It was a busy, busy resort town...where we saw many intoxicated people on a weekend night. If i saw someone laid out on the sidewalk im gonna stop and check them, if i see someone staggering(drunk) into traffic, (personal action here, not for everyone)
i'll use the unit to block traffic and reel them back in,notifiying the police. Because if you dont, you'll be back in 5 minutes for a bloody mess.And it sucks when hindsight is 20/20, and " i could have saved him if i just stopped him from wandering into the intersection" plays on your conscience.
Basically, use your judgement, but "trollling" for people who may be intoxicated but mentating fairly well, walking with that "tequila swagger" doesnt mean they need a transport. If its "that" time of the morning, and your seeing a lot of people presenting as previously stated, realize youve entered the witching hour, and someone could REALLY need you in the next few hours/minutes. Wasting time on a senseless transport taking your unit, you as an asset, off the street is unacceptable.--peace
RescueShirts.com
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No... you wouldn't "call 911" first and wait till you are dispatched.
In those cases, someone, other than yourself, was "contacting 911"... i.e. YOU. You would get on the radio and notify dispatch of your situation.
Walk in medicals... coming upon an accident scene... etc... These are all part of normal day-to-day happenings.
They are NOT the same as cruising around town, looking for drunks to harrass.
In those cases, someone, other than yourself, was "contacting 911"... i.e. YOU. You would get on the radio and notify dispatch of your situation.
Walk in medicals... coming upon an accident scene... etc... These are all part of normal day-to-day happenings.
They are NOT the same as cruising around town, looking for drunks to harrass.
Ridryder911
EMS Guru
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There is such thing as a duty to act. That is when there is a reason for response. Cruising around looking for potential is not that reason, nor is EMS is not designed for that reason. If the persons need a ride, call a taxi or better yet call LEO if they appear under the influence. If one is transporting against or not according to those wishes, one can be charged with kidnapping, and other charges as well. If they are charging for their services, fraud as well. So my recommendation is they immediately cease and obtain an attorney for retainment soon. Management, should be advised of this as well. It is only being a good employee to help prevent or preparing for risk management. These idiots need to be removed as soon as possible.
If there is not enough to do, I am sure management will find something...
R/r 911
If there is not enough to do, I am sure management will find something...
R/r 911
daemonicusxx
Forum Lieutenant
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My partner and i are guilty of this i guess.
He and i were working an event, cotton bowl to be exact. we were just patrolling our assigned area, when we spotted the intoxicated person. realising that there was nothing we could do for the guy, and LEO had already spotted him and couldnt do anything, we continued our patroll, just in a manner that we sorta followed this guy for a little while. low and behold, he decided he was going to attempt to decend the stadium stairs. very steep stadium stairs. he got about half way down and face planted. i heard my partner yell "there he goes!!!" we bandage him up and he gets sent home.
i dont know that you could call that searching for patients, or "trolling" we just spotted an unsafe situation, and made sure that we were close buy for when we were actually needed.
He and i were working an event, cotton bowl to be exact. we were just patrolling our assigned area, when we spotted the intoxicated person. realising that there was nothing we could do for the guy, and LEO had already spotted him and couldnt do anything, we continued our patroll, just in a manner that we sorta followed this guy for a little while. low and behold, he decided he was going to attempt to decend the stadium stairs. very steep stadium stairs. he got about half way down and face planted. i heard my partner yell "there he goes!!!" we bandage him up and he gets sent home.
i dont know that you could call that searching for patients, or "trolling" we just spotted an unsafe situation, and made sure that we were close buy for when we were actually needed.
BossyCow
Forum Deputy Chief
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Are these over zealous Rescue Rickie's doing this in department rigs or in their own POV's?
There is a huge difference between doing your job and seeing a potential problem and going out into the general public on your own time following people and hoping they give you an opportunity to treat them.
I understand the 'too mean' concern as I've been accused of that a time or two. If you take it from the perspective of a 'teaching moment' and let these folks know the possible legal repercussions of what they are doing, you have informed them, record the fact that you did inform them and that they were asked to not do this and then if they choose to keep on, the consequences are theirs. I would also make sure that your meeting with them was witnessed by another officer, hopefully neutral, that can attest to you not being mean but rather protective.
Oh.. and you want to avoid the 'mean' label, you can't begin the discussion with ..."You IDIOTS what the :censored::censored: were you doing??????"
There is a huge difference between doing your job and seeing a potential problem and going out into the general public on your own time following people and hoping they give you an opportunity to treat them.
I understand the 'too mean' concern as I've been accused of that a time or two. If you take it from the perspective of a 'teaching moment' and let these folks know the possible legal repercussions of what they are doing, you have informed them, record the fact that you did inform them and that they were asked to not do this and then if they choose to keep on, the consequences are theirs. I would also make sure that your meeting with them was witnessed by another officer, hopefully neutral, that can attest to you not being mean but rather protective.
Oh.. and you want to avoid the 'mean' label, you can't begin the discussion with ..."You IDIOTS what the :censored::censored: were you doing??????"
firetender
Community Leader Emeritus
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Being aware of your surroundings and noticing people who may be a danger to themselves or others is a part of the territory you are primed for as a medic. It's not exactly the job description, but it is part and parcel of the nature of the work, and on the scene, an essential skill.
You clearly did the sensible thing by continuing your awareness of the drunk and being primed to act -- WHEN the time was appropriate. Unlike those other Bozos, you let the situation take its course instead of imposing your will on it for your own gratification.
You done good!
BossyCow
Forum Deputy Chief
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We just recently had a class on Medical/Legal issues and instead of droning on with the State OTEP, I got a local deputy with our sheriff's department to come in and speak to the volunteers. It was a truly great class. Some of my more enthusiastic voluteers were told by an officer of the law that getting drunk and falling down in your own home wasn't against the law. We had some volunteers, called to a drunk by either the drunk or a family member, who automatically transported to the ER.
It's difficult for some volunteers who do not see this stuff regularly to understand that its okay sometimes to not transport. Drunk and hurt, or drunk and sick are different from just drunk as a skunk. We don't treat the drunkeness, but the medical issues that may or may not have been caused or exacerbated by the drunkeness.
It's difficult for some volunteers who do not see this stuff regularly to understand that its okay sometimes to not transport. Drunk and hurt, or drunk and sick are different from just drunk as a skunk. We don't treat the drunkeness, but the medical issues that may or may not have been caused or exacerbated by the drunkeness.