Is it Abandonment?

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Harbeezy

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Last week we were brushing up on medical/legal stuff in my Emt-I class and we were told a story.

Basically Ems was dispatched to a shooting, they get there and the pt is alert and in pain. They begin to assess when the armed gunman walks up and says, "i wouldnt have shot him if i wanted him to live." So they leave without the pt. and do not return until PD shows up.

Is this abandonment?
 
Harbeezy said:
Last week we were brushing up on medical/legal stuff in my Emt-I class and we were told a story.

Basically Ems was dispatched to a shooting, they get there and the pt is alert and in pain. They begin to assess when the armed gunman walks up and says, "i wouldnt have shot him if i wanted him to live." So they leave without the pt. and do not return until PD shows up.

Is this abandonment?
Click to expand...

That's VERY ambiguous. If the gunman was threatening to harm the EMTs, it's scene safety...not abandonment. If the gunman left or something and EMS STILL left to wait for PD, yes it's abandonment.

Personal safety > your PT. You can't help someone if you're dead/harmed
 
No, not abandonment.


Your safety above all others, then your partners, then the public at large, then finally the patient. No judge would let it go to trial.
 
Harbeezy said:
Last week we were brushing up on medical/legal stuff in my Emt-I class and we were told a story.

Basically Ems was dispatched to a shooting, they get there and the pt is alert and in pain. They begin to assess when the armed gunman walks up and says, "i wouldnt have shot him if i wanted him to live." So they leave without the pt. and do not return until PD shows up.

Is this abandonment?
Click to expand...
Not if they're under threat.
 
Linuss said:
No, not abandonment.


Your safety above all others, then your partners, then the public at large, then finally the patient. No judge would let it go to trial.
Click to expand...

This.

You only need to feel threatened (even if no direct threat has been made), to remove yourself from a scene.
 
Linuss said:
No, not abandonment.


Your safety above all others, then your partners, then the public at large, then finally the patient. No judge would let it go to trial.
Click to expand...

Ditto!! The golden rule of EMS is "Life before Limb, Us before Them."
 
Alright, thanks for the replies guys.

I guess I already suspected that to be the answer,
it just seemed like a really bad situation to be in morally and
was curious on what you guys thought.

Thanks again.
 
Just inform shooter he needs to be a better shot this next time so you don't have to transport
 
Absolutely is not abandonment. Not any different from the patient pulling a gun/knife on you while you're treating them, and you high-tailing it out of there.
 
Amycus said:
That's VERY ambiguous. If the gunman was threatening to harm the EMTs, it's scene safety...not abandonment. If the gunman left or something and EMS STILL left to wait for PD, yes it's abandonment.

Personal safety > your PT. You can't help someone if you're dead/harmed
Click to expand...

If you saw the gunman leave the scene yourself and could be reasonably sure that the scene was secure, it would still be your call whether to enter the scene or not until police arrived.
 
Maybe it's just me, but if you were dispatched for a shooting, wouldn't you check with dispatch to make sure PD was on the scene & it was safe before you ever make pt contact?
 
Epi-do said:
Maybe it's just me, but if you were dispatched for a shooting, wouldn't you check with dispatch to make sure PD was on the scene & it was safe before you ever make pt contact?
Click to expand...
+1 i agree
 
Amycus said:
That's VERY ambiguous. If the gunman was threatening to harm the EMTs, it's scene safety...not abandonment. If the gunman left or something and EMS STILL left to wait for PD, yes it's abandonment.

Personal safety > your PT. You can't help someone if you're dead/harmed
Click to expand...

That is not ambiguous at all! That is cut and dried, black and white.

I don't care if he is threatening me at all. I don't care if he has the gun on him. I don't care period. If the perp (or suspected perp) is still on scene and not in custody, I am gone. No questions asked. Scene is not safe with a guy who has already proven himself violent.

That is all.
 
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