Fines for readmit patients and EMS

JakeEMTP

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This is not about your chronic "offenders" from the street who use the ED like a revolving door. That is another issue to address but CMS readmission penalties that went into effect yesterday are rather clear.

Hospitals have been monitoring AMI, CHF and PNA patients for a few years to collect data for CMS and to see where they also stand for the treatment and their readmission rates. During this time most hospitals have improved overall and have been aware of the penalties which are now being made official. This has been no surprise.

For the hospital who prepared for this, it seems to be business as usual. Those which are not strong in Social Work and Case Management areas due to cut backs may feel it more than others. The patients most at risk for readmission are those who used the ER physicians as their primary care. A few hospitals are finally investing in putting more Nurse Practitioners into home health. This makes much more sense than a Paramedic since they are also concerned about skin integrity, nuitrition and can order and do some of the necessary tests in the home whereas a Paramedic cannot. Keeping the care as direct as possible is the best way to prevent readmissions for the 3 things which also includes whatever is associated with them such as skin break down and other infections.

Essentially, what it means is these patients were admitted for an AMI, CHF or PNA. They supposedly had their problem addressed, treated and put on a long term maintenance program. Social Services or Case Management is involved as necessary, communication to a primary physician has been made, instructions given for discharge medications and activity and the necessary appointments have been made.

Essentially CMS has been in conflict with the hospitals by putting limitations on care per disease which started releasing patients from the hospital too soon.
Medicare pays hospitals based on diagnosis related groups, or DRGs, that allow a single payment for services related to a specific diagnosis and not the actual level of services required for a particular patient. This DRG based payment system is an incentive for hospitals to deliver necessary care at or below the DRG rate. In 2007, the Medicare program did transition to the use of Medical Severity DRGs to better reflect the acute health care needs of Medicare beneficiaries. While this change enhanced reimbursement rates, the incentive to treat patients at or below the MS-DRG rate remains as no reimbursement is provided for the cost of care delivered beyond the DRG rate, outside of an outlier payment. If a hospital discharges a patient before it is medically appropriate to do so, the patient is more likely to return to the hospital for additional care that in some circumstances may be more costly due to exacerbation of the underlying condition(s).


Since 2008, CMS has already penalized hospitals for these if they occured while in the hospital.

foreign object retained after surgery

air embolism

blood incompatibility

stage III and IV pressure ulcers

falls and trauma

fractures

dislocations

intracranial injuries

crushing injuries

burns

catheter-associated urinary tract infection (UTI)

vascular catheter-associated infection

surgical site infection/mediastinitis after coronary artery bypass graft surgery.


Some of these are also in place in the LTC facilities which EMS fails to understand and complains about. They fail to understand about UTI and the need for foley catheter changes. In most facilities, the foley is changed every 30 days. Only a few patients require a trip to the ED for a special situation where the patient has had problems before. IFT trucks only see a very small number of these even though some make it sound like 1 or 2 patients each month out of the thousand in LTC is a big deal.

Some in EMS have gotten bent out of shape because the hospital pulls their IVs in the ED. The hospitals that have done this probably did their QA monitor in that area and found a higher than acceptable infection rate. It is easier for a hospital to change even with a 1000 employees working with IVs than it is to get EMS to change a few Paramedics and their infection policies.

So until EMS understands more about disease processes and just the things they are doing and how they affect the patient, it may still be a hindrance rather than a help in the health care system.

 

JakeEMTP

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I think you hit the nail on the head.

Because of the extreme profit nature and way Americans view how medicine is used, the idea of paying for a defined set of diagnostics, procedures, and over a defined period of time is what causes "McMedicine."

Which of course doesn't work for every patient and it is foolish to think it does.

"Your sickness must meet our criteria," just sounds messed up. But it works very well if you own stock in an insurance company or hospital.

This mentality is actually perpetuated by a fair bit of "evidence" based medicine. One of my favorite are the near constant flow of studies showing that the longer you work US residents outcomes don't change.

(Which begs the question, if you get the same results from somebody in their 40th hour as their 80th, is something really messed up somewhere? Pay no attention to the recent study about remediation rates for US surgical residents)

But that is just one example. It helps make the hospital money. So of course there will be a push-back against something that may cost the hospital money.

Look at the uproar of the speed of discharge from birthing mothers some years back.

Like I have pointed out with the NEJM studies on this very website, the amount of money spent compared to the quality of care recieved is complete disproportionate and does not measure comparitively to every other developed nation. That is going to have to be brought into line for the US.

I maintain, this is just one step in a host of coming changes to soften the blow compared to an abrupt change. (I don't think an abrupt change would be fiscally responsible as a matter of point.)

You also must understand the reasons why CMS had to impose the DRGs in the 80s. You yourself on this forum have said alot of testing done was not necessary. That is what CMS stated over 30 years ago when hospitals and doctors were profitting by ordering as much as possible and keeping patients in the hospital as long as possible because they could and not because they should. The ways things were being done could not continue. Hospitals did not profit from DRGs. They had to learn to streamline the way they did things which was difficult for the doctors who had many cars to supports at that time. Amazing how that has changed today.

But, as I stated previously the CMS changed to Medical Severity DRGs in 2007.

However, if you look at the length of stay stats now being published, the shorter hospital stays can actually be beneficial to some who would have been held over for weeks until they had one or two nosocomial infections.
 

stickclicks

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The issue with this is far too many patients don't give a damn once they leave the hospital. We've all had our fair share of non-compliant patients who for one reason or another don't do what they're supposed to for their own healthcare, and now the healthcare providers will be punished for the patients decision.

Agreed, and when you consider those demographics and the hospitals they go to that get flooded with these non-compliant patients, it kind of seems like a lose - lose situation. Those hospitals are already hurting financially in many cases and are now being penalized for treating patients that are not really helping facilities with income in the first place.


I understand that there are only a few metrics this will be based on in the beginning. MI, heart failure and pneumonia. Where does the line get drawn and be who? Are the junkies eventually going to count in these metrics because the health care system didn't cure them of their addicting within 90 days?
 

Veneficus

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Are the junkies eventually going to count in these metrics because the health care system didn't cure them of their addicting within 90 days?

Addiction is the result of psychological and social affliction.

Medicine can only deal with the physical effects of it. It cannot prevent or cure it.
 

JakeEMTP

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I understand that there are only a few metrics this will be based on in the beginning. MI, heart failure and pneumonia. Where does the line get drawn and be who? Are the junkies eventually going to count in these metrics because the health care system didn't cure them of their addicting within 90 days?

The other measures being looked at include stroke, hip and knee replacements, stents and CABGs.

CMS is concerned now about reducing hospital readmissions.

CMS is Medicare, Medicaid, and the State Children's Health Insurance Program.

At this time I don't believe the private insurers have set their penalties.

Many of the "junkies" have no insurance so there is no payment now except for the state and federal funding or taxes which the hospital might receive to care to the indigent or uninsured population. It will take effort to get them qualified and set up with a state or federal insurance (CMS). Many don't stick around long enough for that to happen and states have cut funding for many to have permanent addresses even in an institution. So that will have to be addressed but not necessarily a concern here. However those with addictions do get sick from AMIs, CHF and PNA. They will have physiological needs also and not only psychological. If they are qualified during admission, hopefully Social Workers can get them set up in a program but again that brings into the fact many programs have closed due to lack of funding. While the government has been trying to pay for everything, something eventually had to dry up and a stricter budget set.
 
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lightsandsirens5

Forum Deputy Chief
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Please let's stay on topic. If you have personal opinions about other forum members, keep them put of an otherwise productive discussion and to yourself. If out doesn't need to be said, don't say it. If you are very concerned, bring your issue to any CL.
 

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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Back to OP

Just read this article today:

http://news.yahoo.com/medicare-fines-over-hospitals-readmitted-084833994.html

I personally believe this would be an excellent opportunity, particularly for hospital based EMS, or private EMS to contract with hospitals and really start pushing for community care paramedics.This could provide EMS with an opportunity to expand ourselves into the realm of triaging people into the healthcare system. That being said our education would have to increase so that we are not over or under triaging patients (i.e. MI patients don't end up at the urgent care and superficial lacerations don't end up at a trauma center). That being said, I have been in EMS long enough to consider such a move by our profession, as a whole, as unlikely.

What is everyone else thoughts about the ramifications of this rule for EMS, if any?

Well, where are the hospitals' incentives to have "street medics" triaging and treating outside the hospital? Not much. Th first time such a patient dies or undergoes pain or anything, the associated EMSA, hospital, and EMS provider will be sued if they support this sort of devolution.

Someone said above: "Some in EMS have gotten bent out of shape because the hospital pulls their IVs in the ED. The hospitals that have done this probably did their QA monitor in that area and found a higher than acceptable infection rate". When/If ANY site of an ongoing IV started out of the hosital's control becomes infected, they are judged to be irresponsible; same for "curbside diagnoses" done without benefit of xray, CT, lab, or a MD.

Where is the EMSA's incentive? None. The private companies? None except possible contracts from municipalities etc to offer such care.
 
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Shishkabob

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Some in EMS have gotten bent out of shape because the hospital pulls their IVs in the ED. The hospitals that have done this probably did their QA monitor in that area and found a higher than acceptable infection rate. It is easier for a hospital to change even with a 1000 employees working with IVs than it is to get EMS to change a few Paramedics and their infection policies.
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Sorry, but out of the studies available concerning IV infection rates for field vs hospital, most show no difference, and in fact, a couple show a higher rate in hospital as opposed to out of hospital. Granted, not a huge increase in rate, but alas, contrary to those of you who believe that the field is 'dirtier', much to the chagrin of IV nurses.



Nope. The only reason is money. Pure and simple.
 
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johnrsemt

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It has always annoyed me that a home bound or ECF patient who is in a Wheelchair can't get Medicaid to pay for a wheelchair van ride to a doctor appt, but they have no problem paying for an ED visit and inpatient stay: usually for things that if they could get to the doctor they wouldn't end up in the ED.
 
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