reaper
Working Bum
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Exactly. Just because someone has had a beer or two, does not mean you can transport against their will! You better be able to prove that they are not competent to make decisions for themselves!
ETOH but A&O3
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Shishkabob
Forum Chief
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Which is why it comes down to the providers choice, just as it should.
If someone is dead drunk, there is no reason a provider should not be able to make that decision.
College EMS groups struggle with this a lot. If we feel a patient just needs to go back to their room, stop drinking and sleep it off, we attempt to solicit a refusal from the patient, as well as a sober friend, who agrees to stay with the patient until the morning.
The lines that define A&Ox4 are fine, and in many cases, a judgment call...
The lines that define A&Ox4 are fine, and in many cases, a judgment call...
BLSBoy
makes good girls go bad
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So, when it comes to patient rights, they have none if ETOH is on board, in your opinion?
I am just trying to clarify your position 100%.
OP
OP
Street Doc
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Dead drunk... its obvious what we need to do. The question is when they are flying pretty high, A&O4, have no medical problems, and refusing tx.
reaper
Working Bum
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That is what you are there to make that decision for!
I was referring to some that say any ETOH, makes refusal impossible. These all need to be a case by case basis. But. you better make a damn good assessment of the situation!
I was referring to some that say any ETOH, makes refusal impossible. These all need to be a case by case basis. But. you better make a damn good assessment of the situation!
firemedic7982
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Ok Im gonna split my reply here.
1st off. Going back to what a colleague of mine said years ago ( and still soapboxes students on) Your pt. is NEVER ETOH! You are not a hospital with laboratory capabilities. You are an ambulance. You have no way of drawing labs, and doing a tox screen in the back of the truck to definitively determine that they are ETOH, and dont have something else workin. What if they have an undiagnosed baseball sized brain tumor, and just happen to be in early stages of DKA as well? Both would cause altered mentation, and the increased level of ketones could be a possible reason for the fruity alcohol like smell to their breath.
Anywho workin in the ghetto like I do, we all know when someone is really throwed off. :wacko:
2nd.
At least here in Houston; ETOH, with no medical emergency is NOT an EMS issue. It is a law enforcement issue. If the cops don't want to take him home, or to jail, or to the hospital for that matter is NOT my problem. Public intoxication is their ballgame. The whole story of " we're not allowed to arrest PI" is a bunch off BS ! Once again it is not my problem, Im not going to push my 16 yr old "my chest hurts, I dont wanna go to school" pt. off on them.
If the person (I say person, not pt. because if Im not taking them, theyre not a pt. ) Is clearly showing signs of intoxication, they are not outwardly presenting with any other complications, and voice not complaints, Im going in service. This is not an EMS issue, it is an issue of lazy law enforcement. When this happens it is a burden on an already overrun, abused, and overworked healthcare industry.
1st off. Going back to what a colleague of mine said years ago ( and still soapboxes students on) Your pt. is NEVER ETOH! You are not a hospital with laboratory capabilities. You are an ambulance. You have no way of drawing labs, and doing a tox screen in the back of the truck to definitively determine that they are ETOH, and dont have something else workin. What if they have an undiagnosed baseball sized brain tumor, and just happen to be in early stages of DKA as well? Both would cause altered mentation, and the increased level of ketones could be a possible reason for the fruity alcohol like smell to their breath.
Anywho workin in the ghetto like I do, we all know when someone is really throwed off. :wacko:
2nd.
At least here in Houston; ETOH, with no medical emergency is NOT an EMS issue. It is a law enforcement issue. If the cops don't want to take him home, or to jail, or to the hospital for that matter is NOT my problem. Public intoxication is their ballgame. The whole story of " we're not allowed to arrest PI" is a bunch off BS ! Once again it is not my problem, Im not going to push my 16 yr old "my chest hurts, I dont wanna go to school" pt. off on them.
If the person (I say person, not pt. because if Im not taking them, theyre not a pt. ) Is clearly showing signs of intoxication, they are not outwardly presenting with any other complications, and voice not complaints, Im going in service. This is not an EMS issue, it is an issue of lazy law enforcement. When this happens it is a burden on an already overrun, abused, and overworked healthcare industry.
Juxel
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Yes, that is what I meant. I started my post with "In Minnesota" because I was merely describing how things work for me. Do I agree? At times. Do I disagree? At times. Another reason why I take medic pay when I'm on an ambulance even though I have further education. Prefer not to be working under someone else's protocols if I'm personally liable having the education.
When I'm working as a paramedic I can only be held legally liable at paramedic standards. When I'm working as an ENP in the ED I'm held to a much different standard and paid appropriately.